Bertie admits Aircorps underequipped!

[P.Doff]

Hi all,
       I read in the paper the other day that dispite Ireland being the EU president next year, that the major meetings, including 1 or 2 with George W, will be held in Brusselles because we dont have enough security cover. It also mentions that we are without air-cover and "IF" the meetings were to go ahead that the RAF or Luftwaffe would be asked to provide cover(intresting that, have the Germans got fighters besides the acquired MIG-29's or has the Typhoon(grounded for the past while by the way due to a series of brake failures!) gone into service??).
      Its bloody embarassing when our so called leader has to admit this to the world!! We all made comments post 9/11 about the need for air-cover, some people laughed some people went overboard, but look at us now, the laughing stock of Europe if not the world!!

[Silver]

I agree that the PC-9M's are a good purchase, for the same reasons as stimpy has stated above.

Maybe he was suggesting that AC pilots could be trained in the UK or at NATO's training facility in Canada - and the €60m be put towards the purchase of jet fighters ?

N.B. - I'm just thinking out loud here   :'>

[Imshi-Yallah]

They've withdrawn the Fulcrums from serivice, so it would be F-4s or GR.4s fitted for air defence.

[FLYER115]

I would tend to agree why do we insist on having pilot training facilities in the country and no frontline aircraft for them to fly?
Why was some imigination not used and 10 to 20 F5E\F purchaced from the Swiss.
The US purchaced 32 low time F5E from the Swiss for just over €500,000 per airframe (Total cost €18 million).
At around the same time what deal did we agree 8 PC 9s for €60 million.
Could a viable interceptor force not have been procured for around €500,000 per airframe.
We could have had say 16 F5E and 4 F5F for €10 million.I realise there would be additional infrastructure costs.
But would we not have been better served setting up a viable interceptor squadron and sending our pilots abroad to train to fast jet transition level to the likes of NATO Flight Training Canada.
I know we are not part of Nato but I am sure our pilots would be accepted as our money would be as good as anyones.

The question has to be answered why are we do we insist on purchacing policies of a first world nation on the defence budget of a third world nation.
What is wrong with secondhand equipment if it meets the necessary requirments. After all all the effective combat aircrat the aircorps ever owned were secondhand (Hurricanes, Seafires, Spitfires etc.)

[alpha foxtrot 07]

mabe this admission will spell a new era for the corps. roll on the F-16

[FMolloy]

Once you give up a capability it's very hard to regain it. The PC-9M's were bought to serve as basic and advanced trainers, if we didn't get we'd have to send all our pilots abroad for training, potentially costing us more & placing our needs at the mercy of the whims of others.

[Silver]

don't hold your breath alpha.

if anything, they would probably get something like the Aero L-139 (even though the PC-9 would be on a par or perhaps better than it) just so they could proclaim "We have jets !" '>

[FLYER115]

I see your point but are we now not at the mercy of the whims of others for a much more important role that being the defense of our territorial airspace? I recall the Minister for Defence saying in a emergency we would need to ask for outside help that is a bit like asking your next door neighbour for a loan of his burgular alarm while you go on holidays because you cant afford one yourself.I for one have no objection to the air corps getting badly needed aircraft. I just wonder could we not have spent the money more imagiatively.Take my suggestion of purchasing 20 F5 for €10 million even allow another €20 million for training and infrastructure to get the aircraft operational. If there is a need for training facilities here something I am not convinced we need why then did we pass up on the German Alpha Jets that were sold for around €25,000 per airframe a couple of years back even with major upgrade we could have had them operational for around €1 million per airframe (Check out the details of the German Alpha Jets sale here http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRH0011/FR0011a.htm ).
Therefore we could have had 12 relatively modern jet training aircraft in operation for €12 million they would have provided the lead in trainer for the F5s. Abinitio training could be either privatized or carried out on a new fleet of say six piston engined trainers not the most expensive capital item to acquire backed up with appropriate ground training aids.
We would have a good start made on providing a well rounded air defense system and cash left over to begin tackling the other needs of  the Air Corps. All I am saying is why are we fixated all of a sudden on new aircraft we simply don't have the budget to meet our requirements so we should be looking at ways of meeting our them with the best use of the money we have.

We purchased secondhand successfully before in much poorer times and it worked for us (Hurricanes,Seafires,Spitfires etc).Many countries see it as a viable way of providing necessary defense equipment within a tight defense budget. If the Air Corps is to wait for new replacements for all the required types air defense aircraft,tactial transports, medium lift helicopters etc. the budget will never be there to purchase them and the air corps will suffer further neglect.
Something we all agree cannot continue.
I do not claim to have all the answers or even that my suggestions are the best possible solutions but I fear the road we are following at the moment will not get us very far.

[alpha foxtrot 07]

hi silver that last post was a bit tonge in cheek but you never know what will happen, with my job i see it every day

[Red Baron]

The Mig 29 were not retired rather they were kindly donated to the polish airforce FREE of charge.23 single seaters and 4 fulcrum B's.All we had to do was ask for them!

[Imshi-Yallah]

They were retired from german service, thats what I said, we couldnt support them and the only reason it made sense for polandwas that they needed a Fishbed replacement and they alreday had a substantial fulcrum fleet and maintenace facilities.

[Tucco]

Anyone see the article in the Sunday Tribune and about woeful ability to defend against attack on US or UK interests here?

It was based on comments by a security expert, who in particular pointed out the fact that wee were wasting money spending €60m on what he called obsolete PC-9ms. Instead of rapid reaction aircraft.

[stimpy]

Not much of an expert if he doesn't understand the value of training. Does he expect the lads in the Air Corp to learn how to fly advanced aircraft from the users manual.

I for one think the PC-9m's were one of the better decisions the Air Corp has made in quite a while. Capable light strike air craft that are also a lead into higher performance air craft.

Rome wasn't built in a day you know, ......... although I hear that was the builders original estimate....

I'll get me coat...