AC pilots flying RAF jets ?

[Irish251]

Sorry guys, but assertions that the RAF have patrolled over Ireland still sound like media fantasy to me.  UK airspace runs up to about 30 miles east of Dublin anyway, so they can operate off our coast at some distance and still be outside the Irish FIR.

Silver, I would like to know what evidence you have for saying that the RAF carry out familiarisation flights here or do touch-and-gos at Shannon.  (The odd weekend "jolly" by a Puma or Lynx to Baldonnel doesn't count!)  In case you are not aware, Ireland has a sizeable and knowledgeable aircraft-spotting community who know their aircraft types well and have a very good idea of what is moving though Irish airspace and airports on a daily basis.  Apart from occasions like the Salthill airshow weekend, I cannot recall an RAF fighter type being reported at Shannon or at any Irish civil airport in the last 30 years.  No photos of such events (or indeed to support the media's allegations about B-52s appearing at Shannon!) have ever been produced, which you would expect to happen if it was true.  After all, we do not yet live in a police state (I hope).  

Commercial charters operating for the US miltary are civilian movements and do not require permission to overfly.  Pretty-well all other US military traffic through Irish airspace is transport types - C-17s, C-13Os, C-5s & C-141s for the most part.  These military transports follow the same routes through our airspace as commercial flights.  

Combat types have very different operational requirements in terms of needing sizeable blocks of airspace for manoeuvering, including rapid climbing  etc.  Read some of the UK air accident/incident reports on civil/military near-misses and you will see that you can't just allow military and civilian traffic to mix without clear separation arrangements and ATC communication.  As has been said before, air defence also requires ground-based radar and other specialised support, so "patrolling Irish airspace" like in some sort of World War I scenario would be of limited value anyway.  What would you be looking for, in any case?

By the way GttC, to be accurate the RAF bought 15 USN surplus F-4Js in the 1980s to supplement UK air defence, after F-4Ms were deployed to the Falklands.  This was long after the UK's purpose-built Phantoms were delivered and had nothing to do with delivery delays. '>

[Silver]

Short finals,
Yes, I am aware of our 'spotter' movement.

As is the case with most posters on this and other boards, I do not have 'hard evidence' regarding RAF jets movements in our airspace (and airports) but am merely relaying what I have read in the Irish media (and to some degree, on IMO).

E.g. It was mentioned on IMO that the RAF have 2 x F3's on standby at RAF Colingsby (?) for the purpose of intercepting suspect aircraft in Irish airspace. These aircraft, apparently, can be over the west coast of Ireland within minutes of an alert.

I suspect that RAF jets do not patrol our airspace on a regular basis, but perform the occassional overflight, etc to familarize themselves with our terrain - with our govts (quiet!) consent ofcourse.

[Irish251]

I think you mean Coningsby in Lincolnshire - it's about 200 nm east of Dublin as the crow/Tornado flies.  Two Tornados were launched from there recently to rendezvous with an Olympic A340 that was diverting to Stansted with a bomb warning.

[Imshi-Yallah]

Eh heres three good reasons for not doing that, FUEL COSTS, MAINTENANCE COSTS, PILOT TRAINING COSTS.

Also silver why are we in immediate need of a jet air defence? Do you know somehting the rest of us dont?
I agree that a self sufficient air defence network should be a strongly held aspiration but absurdist arguments based largely on overgrown AirFixers desires to see shiny planes in Irish colours do not a sound policy basis make.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi SF et al
i stand corrected on the F-4s then but I was told what I posted by an 'ex-RAF jockey who had converted to the "American" F-4s and remembered having to be kitted out in American-standard flying clothing.He believed them to be leased.As for other assertions about RAF aircraft over the Irish Sea,I know that Nimrods have flown along the 12-mile limit, with the knowledge and agreement of the State.Who cares,in the end.We'd be damned glad of them if they prevented a "9-11". Also, having meet many RAF/Army crews in the Don, they were never less than friendly,always open to questions about their aircraft(at least one class of apprentices were given a flight in a Wessex) and always enjoyed their visits and, to a man, bemoaned the fact that the situation "up North" prevented more open exchanges.
regards
GttC

[Fouga]

Tornado F3's have been seen a few times off cork and have been seen doing touch & goes at EINN.

[Silver]

Interesting post Gttc.

I too can see the day (when 'the north' has settled down) that RAF aircraft will be a regular sight at Bal, and indeed may well train with the AC.  

No IM,
I don't "know something that ye don't"  

[Imshi-Yallah]

Or that we do...it seems

[sealion]

Quote (Fouga @ 29 Oct. 2004,23:22)

Tornado F3's have been seen a few times off cork and have been seen doing touch & goes at EINN.

I shared a house for 7 years with an employee of shannon aerospace,and a worker on the Shannon bypass who was the biggest aerosexual I have ever met. Neither of them have ever mentioned anything to me about tornados doing touch and gos,apart from the German Naval ones who were at salthill the year before last.

I think our friends at indymedia would be singing about it too...

Who has seen these tornados off Cork? What part?

[matt_k]

I met a lot of RAF pilots when I was in the ATC. One used to be a part of the crew on standby at Lossiemouth in Scotland and he said that they had tracked and followed suspect aircraft through Irish Air space many times before..

I think we should be grateful that we have such protection should we need it..

[sealion]

Quote (Fouga @ 26 Oct. 2004,12:59)

and would the celtic boss fly off these ac?

"Hello Wing Commander 17 squadron??? Lt Col xxxx here...Irish air c...Force..ahem...Would you mind if we borrowed a few tornados for familiarisation? I notice you are getting rid of them soon and........yes..of course our pilots are fast jet proficient....we have PC9 "interceptors"......good....thats great.....tuesday next?....excellent..."

"One more thing.....do you mind if we cover the RAF roundel with the Celtic Boss?"

"hello?"


"HELLO?.......he seems to have got cut off......"

[Irish251]

An interesting piece from the RAF Website:-

http://www.raf.mod.uk/stc/solstice.html


ROYAL AIR FORCE POLICES BALTIC STATES

On the 14th October, Royal Air Force fighter aircraft assumed responsibility for policing the airspace over the three Baltic States of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia.

Two Tornado F3s from 43 Squadron, based at RAF Leuchars, Fife, touched down at the former Soviet Zokniai Air Force base near Siauliai in north western Lithuania to provide those countries with 24 hour, seven-day-a-week quick reaction
fighter cover for the next three months. More Tornados will join them at the end of this month.

The Baltic countries became full members of NATO earlier this year, and requested the Alliance to bolster their air forces with fighter aircraft to provide them with a credible air defence presence.

NATO agreed to provide a small force of fighter aircraft from other Alliance countries, with Belgium providing F-16s from April for three months, followed by Denmark for a further three months.

Britain is the third country to contribute fighters and the Tornados will fly from Zokniai Air Base until January 2005. Squadron Leader Dan Storr is the 43 Squadron Detachment Commander.

The mission, explained Squadron Leader Storr, was to police airspace: “It should be exactly the same as in Quick Reaction alert in the UK, so we are expecting nothing different in Lithuania. But I must emphasise we are on a policing
mission here – we identify, photograph and report”.

The deployment was delayed a little because improvement work was required in order to operate the Tornado F3. A Lithuanian workforce has been working to complete the work in time. “I think it is going very well, all runway repairs have been completed,” said Squadron Leader Storr. “The hardstanding areas are being extended and four environmentally controlled aircraft shelters are to
installed. Everything is on schedule”.

The vanguard of the British detachment of more than 80 ground crew, engineers and other support personnel arrived at Vilnius International Airport, Lithuania, by RAF VC-10 five days earlier to prepare for the deployment.

But approximately 20 other RAF personnel have been in Lithuania since the start of the NATO Air Policing Mission in April, providing support for both the Belgian and Danish contingents.

An overland convoy transporting fire trucks, aircraft refuellers, forklift trucks, Land Rovers and other support equipment arrived at the air base in the early hours of Monday (11 Oct) after a three-and-a-half day journey by road and ferry.

“All the equipment arrived the day after we arrived which gave us time to get embedded in, look around and get familiar with the area and get it in position,” said the detachment’s Senior Engineering Officer, Squadron Leader Alan
Rogers-Jones.

“The only environmental issue is the temperature. We planned for it to be warmer, but in fact it has been much colder – in the mornings it is about minus 5 degrees so at night it will be much colder than that, and we are preparing for that,” he said.

New environmentally controlled aircraft shelters, called Armadillos, are to be constructed in about a week’s time, he added.

Equipment is being stored in old Lithuanian hardened aircraft shelters. “Additionally the Host Nation is providing us with vehicles and drivers to help us get around. The Lithuanians have been excellent in the support they have given
us”, said Squadron Leader Rogers-Jones.

[futurepilot]

The use of NATO aircraft to patrol Baltic airspace has really rattled the Russians though. Can`t really blame them I suppose.

[John K]

I was talking to a lad in the British Army who has just spent some time in one of the former 'Russian' European states working with their forces and he told me that even though they're in NATO they're still very much 'Russian' with the red star on their hats! And they're learning a lot more from NATO than they're passing on about Russian procedures. (mind you, that could be because the Russians didn't have any procedures! He also said they were very disorganised!)