Author Topic: Air Corps & Naval Service ops?  (Read 994 times)

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Fouga

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Air Corps & Naval Service ops?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2005, 12:28:15 pm »
Switzerland are neutral also right? and smaller than us yet they ahve no problem operating f-18's. i know there is money involved there but anything is possible.

Offline pym

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« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2005, 07:12:40 pm »
The only possible use for the jammer would be to test it against our own Air Defence radars and come up with proceedures/new technology to defeat it.

A: This could be done more cheaply and effectively in training with other countries air forces.

B: Any country with a degree of sophistication can make jamming pods that basically jam everything. It takes a day or two to retune the entire fleet - see the Israeli experience during the Yom Kippur war.

C: This would make our radar controlled guns useless against military opposition. (this assumes they arent all taken out)

D: The idea of jamming pods on PC-9's is a joke. The idea of the Air Corps using them abroad on UN missions for FAC or something is rediculous, due to the cost involved (See how much a silly smoke pod costs) and due to the fact other countries could provide better aircraft easily.

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I dont know how many times this needs to be brought up when talking about why Ireland doesnt operate combat jets but what the hell: We have only become a relatively wealthy county in the very recent past.

Switzerlands pop:  7,450,867, GDP:  $239.3 billion
Irelands pop:  3,969,558 GDP: $116.2 billion

Thats not a bad comparison. But compare it to 20 years ago and you'd realise what state we were in. This country was in bits up to the mid 1990s. Besides a boom in the 60's this country was, I cant put this any other way; fucked.

There was no investment in infrastructure. This country was ruined. I keep seeing discussions about why we should get combat jets and it just doesnt wash with me. We are still building and developing our country, in an effort to assure that this period of economic development continues and we dont fall back into the turmoil of the past.

I dont support any political party because I have opinions which dont tally completely with any of them, but I have to say this for successive Irish governments - they have guided us towards this period of economic boom. Spending the money on jets and MBT's would have come at the cost of education and health. Thanks to the education we have in this country, our country is able to attract and keep highly skilled jobs in the computer and pharmaceutical industries. Thus leading to wealth and growth and budget surplus. Perhaps if we'd joined Nato we wouldve had to spend that same money on the defence forces.... Sorry but I'd obviously see that as a bad choice.

Remember in the 1960s alot of people couldnt even afford secondary education.

The PC-9s are a stepping stone and maybe in the future jets (maybe even with jamming pods!) will be bought but its a long way away yet. Personally the issue of Helicopters and the fact it's being tackled is the most encouraging thing for me.

Anyone taking a look from abroad would recognise that the development of the defence forces is being done quite logically. You dont become a modern military force in one leap, it's going to take 20 years folks.

Of course now I'm gonna be labelled a crusty socialist, but who the hell cares.  I know one member in particular will take umbrage with my pro-education / anti nato stance and say blah blah you need a military which can protect infrastructure before you invest in that infrastucture blah blah blah. But I'm not going to debate this point.

Ultimately everyone here wants a well equipped defence force, the question is - in preference to continued infrastructural development, or in deference of infrastructure. I know what i want.

Offline Turkey

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« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2005, 11:25:09 pm »
Pym , a lot of what you say may be correct, miles off topic, but, it does appear to be right......
Except during the worst times in our so-called ecomomy we operated combat capable aircrafts, perhaps not too well or even to the limit of their capablity, but we did operate them.
The most difficult aspect of operation FJ's is finding the personall to do it.The newly accquired PC-9's should be supplying us with men and women capable of making the step to FJ's within 2-3 years.
So where do you get 20 years from???
I notice that several people who are against us operating combat capable aircrafts do come up with reasons which are at best red herrings and have no real meaning.
The only real reason why we should not operate or train with FJ's is that there is no threath which we can employ them against, but if such a threath should arise then I doubt we will be given the 4-8 months* to make such equipment fully operational[*I freely admit to an element of educated guessing here]
Even prior to the 2nd world temper tamtrum we were operation Gladiators, an aircraft which was capable of making a contributation, no matter how small, to the conflict.
Now we have a whole lot of nothing where as during some times of our worst finical troubles we had such toys as Spitfires and Vampires.
We now have an economic boom for a small percentage of our population, and a period of being slightly better off for a larger percentage, despite the best effords of that fool from Drumcondra and his equaly incompedent fellow criminals.
But all we have for our defence force is a token, and often repeated,statment of purchases of 2 ships and some APC's.
I am wondering how often the stupidly small amount of new helicopters purchased will be repeated to the media as a sign that this present adminstration gives a damn about defence.
No doubt money will be instead spent on giving a very sweet deal to some very rich infrastructure dealer so they can get even richer building another 5 KPH capable motorway and charging people who have already forked out obsene amounts of tax already for the privelage of being delayed on it.
This country can easly afford proper defence equipment and it can be put in place in about 5-8 years, but many politicans would prefeer to waste our money on every cat, dog and devil who appears at our air and sea ports demanding asylum, wheather they need it or not.
BTW , Pym, I am very pro-education, but I am anti-cowardice, we should have joined NATO when it was formed.
I am also in favour of better, and accesable, infrastructure, but I am not in favour of more of berties friends being rich at my fellow taxpayers and my expense providing half-baked inefficent infrastructure. I know what I want too!!!!!
Ireland, no jets, no future!

Offline Silver

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« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2005, 12:26:58 am »
Some good debate/arguments there guys !


pym,
re jamming pods, you have answered my question - we don't need them for the PC-9's. Perhaps someday we will have such on our very own 'jets' !

Offline Buran

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« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2005, 01:15:32 pm »
well said pym!
i agree with most of that.

(just thought id lend my moral support!)

Offline pym

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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2005, 02:45:26 am »
Hi Turkey, dont want to be a pedantic pissant but I'd disagree with the Gladiator being bought in genuine peacetime, the slide towards the second world war was obvious to everyone in the late 1930's.

In my opinion the Air Corps are going in the right direction, slowly but surely. I say this for a simple reason: When the little discussed (IMO) Canberra incident occurred in the early 70's, there wasnt a single Vampire which could take off in less than 24hrs. That was embarassing. Not even a single advanced(?!) trainer able to take off, I mean what the hell was going on? I have this mental image of Baldonnel then and all the aircraft on the tarmac rotting with rust.

You might have already done this - but if you check the dáil debate records online (a great service) you can read about the disdain for the Defence Forces, the utter disdain. I remember reading one politician going on about the great job the Air Corps had done training pilots for Aer Lingus  '<img'>

Fast forward to today - There has been a sea-change and the Air Corps are becoming a proper military organisation for the first time since WW2. New Helicopters are being purchased. I know it's a small amount, but as other people have said - we only bought a few A3's at the start, plus this is the largest order for helicopters we've ever placed I think (2+4). The 139s are going to have a proper troop transport role. Once again I know it's only 4 but it's a stepping stone towards more.  The Pilatus trainers are top of the line military Turboprop trainers.

So I can only look at it in this way: instead of letting the Air Corps die with the retirement of the Fouga and Marchettis, as could've easily happened, the PC-9 was bought. Instead of letting the Air Corps helicopter wing rot with the loss of the SAR role, the troop transport role was found and the 139 bought. New training helicopters have been purchased as well. The government didnt have to do any of this. Buying military equipmant doesnt get you votes. This is my problem with politics   that generally only the things that buy you votes get dealt with. But now at the very least the Air Corps will be flying in safe, modern machinery that they and the country can be proud of rather than struggling to keep old machinery airworthy.

I do not however want to gleefully skip over the fact ministers use the Air Corps as a taxi service. This needs to be stamped out. IF they want a taxi service, they can either buy helicopters specifically for the task and have a fully equipped VIP flight and see how that washes with the public, or they can contract a private company. I dont know enough about the Navy to comment on what kind of equipment they should have, but I am aware that a number of ships are nearing retirement - if the DoD arent actively looking at possible replacements then they simply arent doing their job. As regards the Army, it seems like the first thing that should be sorted out is providing troops with enough of the right kit.

The reason I say 20 years is simply because I can never ever see any Irish government, however wealthy we may become, ever going out and saying "We're buying 4 Frigates, 16 Gripens and 100 Main Battle Tanks. If you dont like it, emigrate." It'll take time but gradually the DF will be built.

Finally (sorry for typing so much, I just find this an interesting topic) I am strongly opposed to Nato. That said as a country our size - we cant contribute anything unless we act as part of a larger group, so we have to be practical - the EURRF as it is planned is the way forward.

(aplogies, I'm just home from a night out on the town and as such full of waffle)





Offline Silver

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« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2005, 04:13:00 pm »
good post pym !

We need more posts like that around here, i.e. more 'positive' posts.

Offline 202

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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2005, 08:55:15 pm »
Good post Pym, we need resources credible for our situation, no less but no more. Air power has very little application in the kind of anti-terrorist security operation that has been the norm in this country for over quarter of a century.