Aircraft Storage

[IAS]

Maybe a silly question, but why does the IAC need so many hangers and not only one for maintenance purposes and one for the museum? Elsewhere, most aircraft are stored outdoors, Airlines, Business, and Private aircraft without any bother, so why not the IAC aircraft?

IAS

[Fouga23]

I wouldn't recomend putting a jet or something like a pc9 outside 14/7. rain, freezing, sun, wind, things like mice

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi Fouga23
Why not? Our Airbuses live outside 24/7 and only get indoors,if they absolutely have to.The PC-9s are perfectly capable of being left outside as long as they are chocked properly, have the air intake plug put in and have the canopy cover put on. After that, the manufacturer specifies a gust limit which must be obeyed. Otherwise, why waste time, manpower and money putting them in and taking them out again, day after day.Virtually all airline and executive jets spend most of their lives outside.Military aircraft are supposed to be able to stand up to harsh treatment.Airlines would grind to a halt if they babied their aircraft.
Did you get that picture, by the way?
regards
GttC

[Fouga23]

I just sayd that because I know what our museum aircraft look like after a year in the open. Offcourse it also matters how close you are to the sea. Our F-104 was stored in Koksijde AB (Very close to the sea)for 1 year and it has massive corrosion all over. Active aircraft here are normally stored in shelters at night.

ps: didn't get the picture. As soon as it arrives, I'll PM you  

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi Fouga23
A typical airliner gets whats known as a "deep clean" every six weeks or so, inside and out.Most private jets get the same, if not more so.A lot of private GA aircraft only get cleaned by rainwater or when they go for their C of A.Most Museum aircraft only get cleaned when a volunteer does it.Incidentally, when representatives from Beechcraft came to Baldonnel to inspect the old Maritime King Airs , when they were put up for sale, they refused to guarantee the spars,saying that the aircraft were based too close to the sea.When asked to define exactly how close was too close, they said "70 miles".When it was pointed out that it was hard to be anywhere in Ireland that was 70 miles from seawater, they just shrugged and left.It was more than ironic, later, when they offered a MarPat KingAir to the Air Corps to fufil the role now taken by the Casas and even more ironic that the initial training of sensor crews occurred on King Airs, flying at low-level over the North Atlantic.
regards
GttC '>

[John K]

As a techie in the 'Don back in the '70s I thought all aircraft were put away for the night! Jeez did we mollycoddle them!
GTTC you're right of course, BA only hangar a 747 every 3 months for two days (A chk.), the 777s are 4 months for two days (A chk.) Dunno about shorthaul but I'd imagine it's not far off that. Most of the maintenance is done on the ramp at the Engineering base here at LHR or down the line.
During the recent strike by catering staff we didn't have enough ramp space at Heathrow for all the aircraft-so there's no way they'd all stay under cover.

[P.Doff]

I know a lot of civvie a/c are left outside at night as were the casa's originally but as most of you exers probably know the don has its own microclimate. The wind here can reach ferocious speeds off the mountains and the temperatures can plummett to some of the lowest in the country during winter. It was becoming a pain to de-ice the casas every morning without the sort of equipment seen in big airports and even with their control locks and blanks on , a/c were and still are on occasion, being battered by the wind and loosing blanks and the like. And dont forget that they have to be "D.I'ed" every night /morning which is much safer done indoors both for the techies and the a/c (more light, ground power etc!!).
And in these days of health and safety thats most important.

[Irish251]

The usage rate of airliners, particularly long-range ones, is such that they are often in the air during the night or part of it.  Short-range machines may land for the night at 2300 or later and be away again at 0630 the next day, so it is quite different to military aviation, where relatively speaking crews and aircraft tend to rack up a lot less time in the air.  Military transports lead a less sheltered life but I think you will find few air arms which do not hangar smaller types as far as possible outside normal flying hours.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi all,
There you go making excuses again. If I(or any other airline engineeer) can do a safe reliable "Daily"/Ramp 1 outside, regardless of all but the worst weather, then so can any Donner.The same goes for routine wheel/brake changes and the 50hr/weekly checks. There is no need to consume hangar space for such routine work.If an Aer Arran ATR(they do not have a hangar at all) can live outside, then so can a Casa.Most King Airs/Gulfies/Lears live outside and do just fine.
As for the flight routines of airliners, most short-haulers fly eight legs a day, usually between 0630 and 2330.If they can cope with that, they can cope with anything.As for the Don's microclimate, well, that's not much of an excuse.There's plenty of tougher environments out there. The Casa suffered broken gust locks and rudder damage because it was forced to live, tail out, in a narrow, confined-entry hangar, with it's tail perpendicular to the prevailing wind.It was an accident waiting to happen, and it did.It was only thru luck that more damage didn't occur.The only aircraft that should be routinely hangared are helicopters and very light aircraft, because their gust limits are low.I'll give you a good example:years ago, the Fouga lads were sent to France for maintenance training, to an Air Base.They were due to go onto the ramp to do some hands-on on a Fouga, as opposed to merely looking.They went to the Duty Sergeant's office and their guide asked for an aircraft. With a great Gallic shrug, the Sgt.pointed out to the ramp.Fifty and more Fougas stood there, some active,most parked with their covers on. A few were taxying out, others shutting down."Which one?" "Anyone you like,I don't care!". When they got outside, they saw that the Fougas were all a little windswept-looking, maybe needed a wash here and there, paint a bit faded but otherwise perfectly serviceable. They whiled away their day, checking out the Fougas.Later, they got flights in them.During coffee breaks, they quizzed the local mechanics.To their utter surprise, they found that the Fougas never came indoors, except for major overhaul.Never.They got painted at major overhaul, otherwise never.All maintenance was carried out where they stood.The French regarded them with the same affection and regard as a favourite Honda 50 and flew them for about three hours per day,each.In other words, they treated them like aeroplanes,not precious gems, and got out of them exactly what was required. Simply, if every airline in the world can do with them what the manufacturer intended, then so can the Don. The Don always seems to think that aviation has to be reinvented once it gets inside their gates.The Don can't aspire to overseas ventures if they can't even keep their aircraft outdoors at home.
Quite frankly, when I think how I had my eyes opened, by engaging with civvie engineers and learning much more efficient civvie practices.The Don had a lot to learn.
regards
GttC

[Fouga]

well done GTTC!

[freespeed]

Quote

If I(or any other airline engineeer) can do a safe reliable "Daily"/Ramp 1 outside, regardless of all but the worst weather, then so can any Donner.

GoneToTheCanner;

Just because you can do a safe, reliable "daily" out on the ramp, or did when you were in the Don doesn't mean that everyone else has to.  If the DI can be done in a safer, more comfortable working environment then why not?  I bet if Aer Arran had free, convenient hangarage they'd use it.  Ask any of the avionics guys who've worked over the years on the CASA, Defender or Dauphin about the number of times they've been called to work on an EFIS/radar eqpt that turned out to be damp.  15-20 minutes with power on and things dry out! Better to have them dry to start with.

Regarding the weather, you mentioned the CASA damage. Existing hangars weren't big enough for the CASA and the Dept wouldn't spend the money. I'm sure you remember that the greatest weather damage caused to the CASA was in the early nineties when it was left out on the ramp over a weekend(the fouga ramp where No 5 hangar is now).  That cost something in the region of £30,000 at the time. After that incident the best(or more likely worst) alternative was tail out in No 1 hangar.  Eventually the Dept in their generosity purchased the nose lifter.  Better than their solution for the GIV, by cutting a hole in the door of No 3 hangar!  There has probably been more money spent on the repair of corrosion on the GIV than it would have cost to build a hangar at the time.

IAS;

In answer to your original point, the hangars pre-date the Air Corps.  Over the years they have been used for many things; you mentioned the museum, they were also used as transport workshops and for vehicle storage.  Many of the current fleet are high maintenance aircraft (PC-9, helis).  Usage varies based on requirements.  Even GoneToThe Canner admits that helicopters should be hangared.  With the imminent arrival of new helicopters the hangars will be in full use again.  From the Depts point of view its cheaper to repair existing hangars than build new ones ('repair' is from a different budget than 'new'), and if they knocked them down, they'd only have to spend money putting something else there that might be needed.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi freespeed
I accept your counter-arguement as being valid,to some extent.We never suffer damp problems to our Airbuses because we are paranoid about closing all hatchs, panels,doors,etc.We did suffer it on the 146s but they were not as well protected as the 'Buses are.The Casas were notorious for their bad sealing from day 1.I remember the continuous changes of radar from 252-253 and return because of it.Also, there is simply no point in dragging aircraft from ramp to hangar in good weather simply to change a tyre or to avail of ground power. Bring the gene to the aircraft.It takes longer to move the aircraft and risk doing damage than it does to change a wheel.Also, the old Don saga of having to scour the place for tools and jacks added time to even such simple tasks. I also remember changing a wheel on a Marchetti on the ramp and getting endless grief from the BFTS heads for it.The aircraft was under our charge in tech Wing so I ignored them.They regarded it as sacrilege that I would do such a task out of doors!....Helis have to be hangared, if only to prevent the rotors being damaged by gusts and because their sealing is very poor by comparison to regular aircraft...The Don will have to get out of the comfort zone if it wants to be able to play with the real pros overseas.
regards
GttC

[John K]

Everything you say is correct, GTTC, but Jeez! It brought back memories of DIs on the square at Finner! In the dark! In the depths of winter! Y'think it gets windy in the 'Don? try Donegal in January! I'm with Freespeed on that one I'd much rather do the job in the hangar. In the BA  Rules/Regs it does stipulate certain jobs that must be done inside, but on a nice summers evening, which it was the other night I did an FMU change on the run pen and it was one of the most enjoyable nights I've had for a while!
Mind you Avionics are always whinging when they have to do something outside!

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi Freespeed
I did hear that a cabin upgrade had been proposed but long-fingered under the possibility of getting rid of 240 altogether and putting the money towards a replacement.
As regards the hangars, the whole saga about the condition of the hangars and the utter farce about raising roofs, cutting holes in structures to admit tails etc, is just one sick joke and an indictment of bad decision-making,pointless infighting about who control's what money and blatant stupidity.I always regarded the nose-lifter idea as one fraught with potential for disaster and a weird solution to a problem.Either fix the roof properly or build a tail-box on the roof.Better still, flatten all the old hangars and build new ones.It is more than ironic that the hangar that houses the PC9s was originally condemned and regarded as unfit for aircraft,and that no funds could be found to restore it and now to find that it can now be totally renovated if the Swiss complain about it's condition!! As for the serviceability of EFIS-equipped helicopters,I remember being shown Dauphin screens, in the aircraft and up in the Avionics workshop, with condensation inside the screen! It was utterly stupid, in 1986, to put Dauphins into a leaky, draughty, filthy hangar and expect them to remain unscathed, whilst BFTS had their Marchettis in a brand-new, well-fitted building.I hope the new helicopters will be well housed....I'm glad those consultants came over from the States and dragged the place apart.Does anyone know the name of their report and if it was ever published?
regards
GttC

[John K]

Remember the 'earthquake' back in the early/mid eighties? I half expected to arrive in Baldonnel from Leixlip to find the aircraft flattened by the hangars! Only days beforehand I remember seeing daylight in cracks in the (single brick) hangar walls!
In the winter there was hardly any work done 'cos we were all warming our ar5e5 on the fan heaters! Till someone made it do a 'Flame Out'! WHOOOF!!!!!!!!!