Fighter Jets for the Air Corps -

[David Scully]

Thanks for that Fouga, i thought they were delivered and then returned.
Thanks for the correction

[Hess]

Quote (SousaTeuszii @ 20 Aug. 2006,14:16)

A SAM battery without the will to use it is a pile of complicated, expensive parts that will rust away before ever being used on a civil aircraft.

That is my point exactly, that it will rust away, never having to be used. It's called a deterrent. Since the government and top brass of the Air Corps would be unwilling to deploy one or two squadrons of interceptors, this would seem to be the logical "cost-effective solution".
As for the deployment of these S.A.M.s & the perceived unwillingness  of the government to shoot down a civilian airliner, this could be counteracted by certain "scares" where the missiles are actually activated, targets are tracked & the international press knows about it. Therefore we wouldn't have to spend half a billion for fast jets punching holes in the air. Leave it up to the military spin-doctors. The word would get out!!

[SousaTeuszii]

Hi Hess,
A deterent is only a deterent if you are willing to utilise it. Firstly every country in the world knows that when it comes to hard decisions Ireland is full of fence sitting spineless polititons. The COS is so spineless he hands control of the air defence to the person most likely to be in the target area instead of having to make a career decision. God bless somebody paid huge sums to protect this country should have to make life and death decisions!
Secondly, who are you going to target and track? Civil airliners wouldnt know the difference unless you release it to the press. Are you seriously going to tell Micheal O Leary that you tracked one of his aircarft for no good reason. He sues over security delays never mind being on the pointy end of a SAM. Perhaps instead we could light up an allied aircraft. They will know and considering that shining lights on targets in the wrong way can be considered an act of war a radar lock should get their attention. Lets just hope their not armed. We have all seen what happened the Canadians when the Americans enforced their 'right to self defence'.
Thirdly, how expensive is a SAM battery capable of hitting targets at 35000' doing 0.85 and whats going to track the target. These weapons are the size of small buses and may have issues with planning permission never mind the huge radar antenna pumping out RF into the surrounding population 24/7.
Lastly, if it is a good idea why does nobody else use it and instead prefer to rely on air interceptors with short range SAMs as a last ditch point defence weapon at strategic targets such as the White house.
I am sorry if that all sounds a bit facecus but a shoot to kill weapon will never work as a deterent. As an example, if you were a crusty about to charge the fence at Shannon which would you be more afraid of, a soldier with a leathal weapon he cannot legally use or a soldier with a rabid dog with a mouth like a bucket full of teeth! Dog wins for me every time.

[David Scully]

Agree with ST 100%
The fact is we remain one of the very few EU member states without a supersonic jet interceptor. When you consider our geographical position on the Western seaboard of Europe... under the current climate i think the investment is minimal and greatly reduces the risk of attack in this Country.

[Fouga]

Quote (SousaTeuszii @ 21 Aug. 2006,14:41)

Firstly every country in the world knows that when it comes to hard decisions Ireland is full of fence sitting spineless polititons.  if you were a crusty about to charge the fence at Shannon which would you be more afraid of, a soldier with a leathal weapon he cannot legally use

Hey Dail Eireann can you hear me all the way back there in the 50's? '>


Soldier can when is is being armed he is given his Authority to fire under certain conditions such as in defence of himself, of Govt property yadda yadda ive done the Guard Duty thing before as im sure most of you have also?

[SousaTeuszii]

Hi fouga,
If a crusty comes over the fence, ignores you on guard and runs with an axe toward a US Navy 737 and you shoot him is it a legitimate use of force. I  think not. Could you release the hounds just for him coming over the fence, Yes. If that was an unknown inturder in a war senario then you could be justified to shoot him, her, it.
Its the same principle for all leathel, non lethal engagements including air defence. The rules are totally different for Full, Limited and cold war senarios and of course the short periods of peacetime the world has now and again.
Present air defence senarios require the threat to be identified and determined as an actual hostile before lethal action can be taken. Anything else is either a lucky call or murder, its a fine line to tread.

[Hess]

Hi SousaTeuszii,

So the SAM site issue has already been "shot down", so to speak, you made many valid points against Ireland acquiring SAMs. However, since the muppets in power are not inclined to spend money on jet interceptors, because they believe that there is no threat to their power (they were pretty f***ing radical during the conflict in the North, when there WAS a threat to their power), how about going with the Icelandic solution? Allow Shannon or some other airport to be used by some nation that has interceptors, since we're too cheap to buy them anyway? Keeping in mind that both US & UK would not be acceptable to most (all?) treehuggers. How about inviting in the Dutch, or the Belgians, or the Danes, or even the Krauts (Marineflieger, good experience over the Atlantic environment) i.e. "training base" & have an agreement with them, that they will defend our airspace such as Iceland has with the US. It would cost us a minimal amount of money compared to any other solution. Just a thought.....
That's my 2 Kronur.

PS: But what about national pride? C'mon you muppets in power!!!

[Irish251]

Hess

As you are probably aware:

(i)  All western air arms have substantially downsized since the Cold War and at the same time several of them have had to take on a lot more actual operational duties in the various areas of unrest in the Middle East and elsewhere.  They are already stretched in meeting these demands.  There would be major issues in Germany with them deploying combat assets abroad - this derives from history regarding that country's past military adventures!

(ii)  The USAF has recently pulled out of Iceland.  They were there as much for their own reasons as to protect Iceland.  When US interests dictated that they did not need to remain, they left.

Therefore I think it very unlikely that another country would want to assume the task of providing Ireland with air defence.  Furthermore, even if you envisage a country other than the US or UK doing this, I think there would still be strong opposition among the Irish population to stationing military combat assets of another country here.  I think any such proposals would also need to be proofed against the Constitution and statute law, e.g. the Defence Act 1954, section 16 of which reads:

"16.—It shall be lawful for the Government to raise, train, equip, arm, pay and maintain defence forces to be called and known as Óglaigh na hÉireann or (in English) the Defence Forces."

[Fouga]

Quote (Hess @ 22 Aug. 2006,12:10)

It would cost us a minimal amount of money compared to any other solution. Just a thought.....

They should pay us to be here we all know they would love it. I spoke to a US Army Blackhawk pilot at Salthill a few years ago and he said the book for all things regarding Aviation in Ireland for Civillian and Military Ops etc ( Rules,Alt whatever ) came to.........wait for it.....1 page. He said most Nations had over 40pages regarding their rules and regs for transiting or whatever regading Civillian and Military traffic both from those nations and Foreign Mil etc.

[Fouga]

Quote (Short finals @ 22 Aug. 2006,13:10)

I think there would still be strong opposition among the Irish population to stationing military combat assets of another country here.

And to think of all the People who love Aviation as a whole in this Country like look at Salthill 250,000+ this year and they couldnt wait for the roar and power produced by the Pratt&Whitney F100-PW-229 Turbofans of the F15E which produces 129.40 kN / 13 190 kgf with Afterburner!

[Irish251]

Fouga

Your enthusiasm may be blinding you to the realities here. Interest in a free airshow at Salthill, which is essentially entertainment, cannot in any way be taken as an indicator of support for the actual stationing of combat aircraft from another country in Ireland, especially with an intention that, if necessary, they would intercept and maybe even shoot down civilian aircraft.

[SousaTeuszii]

I cannot see other military powers being statioed her. My reason for this comes from recent history.
After the tragic events in Waterford the RAF made a very magnanimous gesture and offered to replace the Dauphin in Finner with a Seaking for the duration of the funerals etc to allow all crews to stand down. This gesture was thrown back in their face by being told that no forgien aircraft would ever be based in Ireland.
With true RAF style the Seaking arrived anyway as a 'liason' aircraft and the machine carried many people from funeral to funeral. While they were made very aware of the gratetuide by many people they got no thanks from on high (outside the Air Corps), just insulting scilence.

[David Scully]

Basing foriegn Military Aircraft in this Country would never work!! look how they welcomed the USN 737 @ Shannon (with a hammer) and then got off scot free as bloody heros!!
Even the idea on relying on the RAF for top cover costs money and could you imagine the Dail debate on that one....
ST comments re the RAF Seaking or spot on in the way people think.  

[Fouga]

Quote (David Scully @ 23 Aug. 2006,04:51)

look how they welcomed the USN 737 @ Shannon

Most of them were not even Irish....

[Hess]

Hi all,

ok:
1. SAMs are OUT!
2. Foreign forces on our soil for our air protection is OUT!
(God, I sound like Maggie Thatcher)
3. Proper Irish Air Corps interceptors are OUT
WTF, guys, anybody got a bright idea how to defend the sovereign Irish airspace?