AIR CORPS SAR TO END !

[Silver]

Quote

what will happen to all the 61 trained personnel

I would advise CHC to stock up on job application forms !

BoB,

I just read your comment and I have to admit.......I was to quick in my reaction.
In our country the politics are different and our ( RNLAF) SAR is military and doin'a hell of a job.
From you story I understand that the IAC SAR is not a "smooth" operational unit??

Our SAR has the task to support the Forces fist and when needed they'll support the public.

Do I understand you well that in Ireland this is the other way around??

Anyway, thanks for clearing things up for me.

Merry X-mas and a great new year.

Guinness

[BoB]

Silver..Agreed the need for CHC to stock up on application forms....however I'd also suggest they need to be a little selective in their recruitment....I'd refer you to all the complaints regarding mismanagement in the Air Corps! (No bubble gum rings please!   '> )

n-e-foo....um...er....compare a S-61 to a Seaking in the troop role?? Bizarre you think there can be no comparision!! Let me see....the S-61 is bigger inside & will carry more....it has a cargo door on the starboard side...which is similar in dimensions to the Seaking's!! & the air-stair door is also on the starboard side & far more accesible than the Seaking's which is on the port side!! Um....er....methinks you may not actually know as much as you'd wish us to believe!

I understand that CHC would operate Light Utility for the AC at a lovely rate!  '>

Oh....& a direct quote for you from a recently retired AC member I know....& I quote
'heheheheheheheheheeheeeheheheheheheheheheheehehehehehehehehehehe, hohohohohhohohohohohohhohohohohohohohohohohhohoho,hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahhahahahahhahahahaahahah!' Is that a C&S I see coming over the horizon!

[P.Doff]

Heard this week that Heli is to be reduced from a wing to a squadron because theres not enough personell !!
Its also rumoured that '106 sqdn', ie GASU, will be operating under one roof, which means the defender will be going to heli even though 106 , including the helis, is part of No1 ops wing!
Dont know if that means that 106 will become part of No 3 support wing (Sqdn whatever???!!) but I think thats the general jist of the rumour??!!

[n-e-foo]

Bob I don't know that much! I freely admit it. Thats why I'm on this board so I can find things out, I dont have pretensions otherwise like you make out.

I didnt say the s-61n couldnt compare and going back to the original point I never even suggested the s-61 for the transport role! I just thought, visually the door seemed smaller which meant it would not be ideal for troop transport.
If I'm wrong fair enough you obviously know what your talking about, but I'm here to find stuff out, not to be insulted.

Cheers

[Imshi-Yallah]

BoB first of all agreeing with Fianna Fail is like walking into Bethlehem and telling ppl ur a big fan of the Sharon administration...
FYI the individual in question posts with the sole intention of disrupting constructive or enjoyable discussions, therefore all posts by said person have no realistic basis on which to agree.

Secondly I think you misread the tone of Guinness' post and retorted in an unnescessarily harsh manner, I wouldnt worry too much we've all done it (often with ppl we actually have very similar opinions to...me and Lurk?).

Back to topic.
The reason the IAC has been so desperate to maintain the SAR role is a not entirely unreasonable fear that if it loses this last publicly visible peacetime role before it achieves a major military operational tasking that it will get the chop, as would appear to be happening.
Just remember the voting public do not care about defence, therefore the state does not care about defence: ergo there is a very high likelihood that any funding withdrawn for the SAR tasking will not find its way back into the IAC coffers.

The 61 will not be used for army work. The 61 will return to CHC for use on SAR in Sligo. Good luck to them, and I hope they can provide a service second to none. In the meantime, a three axis 61 can be provided to the AC for the remaining duration of the lease (up to the end of 2004). God knows what No3 will do with it. For the first time however, the Min Def has not ruled out sending Air Corps helicopters overseas in support of troops. Not wanting to cast asparagus, but I hear that the ARW are less than pleased with the helicopter support they are currently getting in Liberia. Could the Dauphins be sufficiently lightened to provide support in the short term, at least until an interim utility helicopter can be provided?

[BoB]

Imshi-Yallah
Hmmm.....is agreeing with Fianna Fail so disagreable because he/she doesn't always vote Air Corps? & Does that fact instantly make his/her comments something to disregard off hand?? I think not....the fact that you instantly suggest it is troubles me....perhaps it is your posts which should be classed as having no realistic basis??
Now...back to topic. If the Air corps was so desperate to keep SAR, why did they allow the Sligo Fiasco to occur? Why did the Air corps allow the same people to mismanage another very public enterprise? Why with some 900 personnel couldn't they manage to run one helicopter, which they didn't even have to provide maintenance for? Your officer Corps is circa British Army 1860. Those days have gone! The military around the world are turning to 'civvies' to run various operations for them! Why? Because the civvies do it more cost effectively & better! There are some jobs civvy regulations won't allow them to do....step in the military. Facts are facts....the Air Corps management were handed a SAR lifeline & through staggering arrogance blew it!
You mention the public....how can you expect the general public to vote Air Corps when the Air Corps has failed to provide!? They don't care who operates the machine...they just care that it turns up when they need it!

Guinness......Merry Christmas!

[Imshi-Yallah]

Quote

mmm.....is agreeing with Fianna Fail so disagreable because he/she doesn't always vote Air Corps?

No its because FF votes for the IAC every time, I've been here for quite some time and have seen FF use the same tactics to kill other boards (remember when people used to post at Irishmilitary.com?).

Quote

I think not....the fact that you instantly suggest it is troubles me....perhaps it is your posts which should be classed as having no realistic basis??

My post has hundreds of individual cases of FF trolling for fire and driving threads offtopic easily obtainable by taking a look back through the archives here and elsewhere, that is fact.
Your high and mighty tone is not.

I speak from an army point of view and background, as I always make abundantly clear I'm after a military air arm of the DF in its constitutional roles not the display team, gucci feelgood factor.

Quote

Now...back to topic. If the Air corps was so desperate to keep SAR, why did they allow the Sligo Fiasco to occur? Why did the Air corps allow the same people to mismanage another very public enterprise? Why with some 900 personnel couldn't they manage to run one helicopter

Because they don't have 900 personnel for a start, all operational elements are short on key personnel and suffer high turnover of personnel.
The issue was primarily a safety issue, that was a crew concern, the last time crew safety concerns were pushed aside four people died pointlessly.
The management does indeed need to be radically re-organised but once againthe issue in Sligo was safety, there were equipment deficits that shouldnt have been tolerated (a second S-61 for a start). There were also unrealistic expectations made by the bright sparks who leased the aircraft.
 

Quote

You mention the public....how can you expect the general public to vote Air Corps when the Air Corps has failed to provide!? They don't care who operates the machine...they just care that it turns up when they need it!

The IAC management fanciful and snobbish as they may sometimes be do not choose funding, equipment or when to deploy.
How about not being so quick to anger over what should be a civil discussion, I don't care how much you think you know better or feel more passionately, be hostile and you will reap what you sow.
There was no reason to react angrily to Guinness' initial post or to mine.

[Silver]

It's official -
 
The Air Corps will no longer be involved in Search & Rescue !

The Minister for Defence has announced the ending of Air Corps SAR operations with the withdrawl of the Sligo-based Air Corps Sikorsky S-61N. The SAR service will now be operated entirely by the Irish Coast Guard.

The end of an era after 40 years of SAR ops    '>


(N.B - This announcment has been mentioned in other threads but I believe such an important development deserves a thread of it's own).

[Silver]

And to try and 'soften' the blow, he has announced the (possible!) arrival of new light helis next year  

.......amazing how this was also announced during the same week as the new govt jet is due to arrive !

[n-e-foo]

Surely this means the aircraft can be stripped, serviced and redesignated to troop transport in the interim? Maybe leave 2 Allouettes with SAR gear.

Could modular SAR gear be bought for the future Heli's in case of emergencies?

And what does this mean for ML heli's? '>

[Imshi-Yallah]

Quote (Silver @ 17 Dec. 2003,10:36)

And to try and 'soften' the blow, he has announced the (possible!) arrival of new light helis next year   .......amazing how this was also announced during the same week as the new govt jet is due to arrive !

Actually he announced the possible tendering of a contract next year that means at least another year before selection and another 6 months minimum before first delivery.

[Pink Panther]

n-e-foo,
If your talking about SK257 its sole task is for AWSAR for the north west of the island it will go back on the civil register EI CXS and be used by the coastguard.It takes about six months to fit the automated systems to the aircraft for SAR.The wiring alone weighs around 300lbs,it just isn't an option.

Imshi,

about the timespend you mentioned..... it IS possible to have these helicopters sooner than that.
It just depend what the AC is looking for.

If they are looking for new airframes, you're right but if they choose for 'secondhand" helicopters they can arrive within a few months.

Guinness