New Helis at Baldonnel

[SousaTeuszii]

Hi Pym,
With the right add on equipment a civil helicopter can be made capable of military operations, a good example is the Puma. These machines would however still be more normally found in 'limited war' scenearios, ie a threat exists but there is not full conflict. It could be argured that this will typically be scenearios that Irish troops will find themselves in.
The amount of addons again are dictated by the threat, ie ballistic protection, RWR, chaff, flares etc. Remember that all of these cost money and more importantly add weight to the aircraft. Possibly the most important aspect is the aircrafts ability to survive a critical component failure. The AW139 has this in buckets when it comes to engines and I imagine that although the not tested or specified the rotors and flight controls have some ballistic tolerance.
There is currently a very good article in Rotor and Wing (available on line) talking about the differences between civil aircraft pushed into a military role and purebreed military helicopters. If you get a chance have a read they basically adopt the attitude that the recent purchase of the EC145 LUH is a continuation of the watering down of Mil Spec requirements and the trend should be reversed.

On a slightly different note I believe that the personnel in No 3 can make these aircraft and crews capable of overseas operations however the biggest hurdle they will face are the Government. The Government refer to the White paper on Defence for everything and it states that the Air Corps have no overseas role. This paper also impacts all equipment purchases even though the equipment may still be in use long after the paper changes.
I wish all the folks there the best for the future and hope to see them overseas in a not too distant future but I think the issue of civil Vs military helicopters will be the easiest obstacle to overcome.
ST

[Flyboy]

Realistically can anyone forsee a situation where a helo in Ireland needs to be sent with two door guners. I can understand the requirement to deploy special ops troops to any part of the country quickly, but I hope they never have to go with door gunners. The only place I can see the door gunners required is on overseas deployment and if that happens then the "home" fleet is depleted.

[sealion]

Reading the Indo yesterday, I was led to understand that by going ahead with the option for a further 2 aircraft, they would follow the previous two directly off the production line, rather than going to the back of the que, which is approaching 190 airframes at present.

Quote

€24m chopper deal to revamp Force Sunday Independent 03/12/2006 DON LAVERY TWO more high-tech Anglo-Italian armed helicopters are to be bought for the Air Corps in a €24m deal in the latest revamp of the force's outmoded fleet. Defence Minister Willie O'Dea is to indicate that an option to buy two more AW-139 helicopters, which will have a primary role of operating and training with Ireland's Special Forces, is to be taken up before the end of the year. The move comes after the first two of four AW-139 helicopters ordered in an earlier €48m contract were shown to the media last week. One of the helicopters displayed at a blustery Baldonnel was kitted out in a Special Forces role with two GPMG machine guns manned by air gunners, and seats for eight Army Rangers along with abseiling equipment. A second helicopter was configured as a 15-seat transporter. Two other helicopters ordered as part of the earlier contract will be delivered in spring next year. The Minister resisted the urge to sit behind a machine gun and instead went for a flight in the new aircraft. He will announce that a down payment will be made on the two optional aircraft before the end of the year. Otherwise Ireland would miss its production slot for the AW-139, which is the best-selling helicopter in the medium twin-engine class in the world, and additional Irish aircraft would not be built until 2009/2010. The Air Corps is the first military force in the world to operate the AW-139. The latest plan to acquire more helicopters comes at the end of an unprecedented three-year spending spree which has seen orders placed for nearly €170m-worth of new aircraft.

[pym]

Quote (Flyboy @ 04 Dec. 2006,08:45)

Realistically can anyone forsee a situation where a helo in Ireland needs to be sent with two door guners. I can understand the requirement to deploy special ops troops to any part of the country quickly, but I hope they never have to go with door gunners. The only place I can see the door gunners required is on overseas deployment and if that happens then the "home" fleet is depleted.

My, we have short memories.

There are still subversives in this country who are hell bent on destroying the progress made in the 6 counties over the last ten years.

While I dont think it's likely we'll see AW-139's chasing CIRA members down the M50 with door guns blazing.. there are other scenarios where they could be used.

If I remember correctly the IRA specifically threatened the Air Corps heli's in the 70's/80's with being shot down. I could be wrong on this but I do remember mention of it?

I'm sure the CIRA/RIRA/"OnH"/ACMEIRA would, given certain circumstances be perfectly capable of taking a pot shot at the Air Corps if, for example an AW-139 happened to disturb their training in a field in Donegal.

It'd be nice in such a scenario for the door gunners to, "let them know who daddy is". While the already disembarked ARW back up the Gardai in taking the dangerous bastards to justice.

[/slight whiff of waltering]

On a more every day note:
The guns and heli's let's face it, look really well - they're a decent recruiting tool.

They also provide a realistic training tool.

And if a scenario overseas demanded it, they could be deployed.

[SousaTeuszii]

Doeith Me. That should read that the Super Puma is a good example of civil heli turned to military use. The 330 was after all designed in response to a French military requirement.

Sealion, Generally when options on aircraft are in place these are specific airframe nos. So you should be correct that they should follow close behind the others although I doubt if they have commenced construction yet otherwise the DoD would have had to 'piss or get off the pot' at a much eariler date.

Flyboy, Weapons such as those fitted to the AW139s are primarily for defensive pruposes and not attack operations. I could see an instance where the ARW are called in to an operation in Ireland that could concievablly require approach and landing in a 'hot' area. It is here that the door guns suppress the enemy to allow the troops disembark, reach cover and the heli depart with as little damage as possible. It is always a wish that such weapons are not needed but lets face it, if the ARW are already called in then the situation is likely to be very dangerous, it would be nice to have lead flying in both directions and not just one.
ST

[pilatus]

are the FLIRs(if any have been bought at all) actually going to be fitted or did they just specify it as an add on for the future incase the requirenment comes up?

[papa 242]

Hi.Pilatus,
Quite low ground clearance,particularly for rough terrain ops, would be interesting to see where the FLIR would fit!.
Lovely looking aircraft though! Best of luck to all the crews and safe flying!

[John K]

Amen to that P242. It does look like a fantastic heli, and it's great to see the IAC at the forefront of helicopter operations with a new machine.
I still can't see any passive threat detectors on the fuselage though. Any aircraft going into high threat areasthese days has to be fitted with missile detectors, chaff/flare dispensers, etc. So I doubt if they'd be deployed anywhere dangerous, unlike the troops on the ground!
Do they let 'techies' go on UN duties yet?

[papa 242]

Hi! John K.
Never mind all that threat detection stuff!.... on a deployment,where would the Cha Club go??!!!  

[pilatus]

on the front port side of the helis there is a mount for these FLIR cameras look at the pics!they look like upside down mushrooms beside the radome!but i was wondering have FLIRs actually been bought yet or is it just a requirenment to avoid retrofitting at a later date? '>

[John K]

pilatus if you check out any of the RAF/USAF stuff they have little sensor windows mounted around the aircraft looking out in all directions. Not Forward Looking Infra Red cameras-that's the sort of thing the police use, or for Night Vision Goggle use. No these sensors detect the 'spike' when a missile is launched toward the aircraft and a small screen in the flight deck shows the direction to the pilot so they can take evasive maneuvers/countermeasures.
As for the 'cha' club, P242, they'd have to take along the little green bread wagon we used to use! Especially kitted out as a mobile workshop! With tools, a workbench, a vice, a cooker!, rig up the camo net at the back and it becomes invisible! (Unless they've got infra red!)
I still think the Puma was the best though! love your avatar, John.

[Spook]

Had my first sight of one of the aw139's this afternoon,(dont know which one ,unable to see the serial and no camera handy )it was flying across the midlands,nice turn of speed and much quieter than i had imagined.Btw the ELT does stand out very much ,even on a very dull day,but then again thats whats its for.   '>

[Old Redeye]

It's official.  The government has signed a contract for the two additional AW-139's, for a total of six.

[clog]

Thank God!!!!!!!!!

Great job, keep going Minister O'Dea!!  

[Flyboy]

It has all been a bit quiet following the inital flurry of pics etc following their arrival. Does anyone know if they are being used for army training etc and are there any pics available of them "in use" ?