Baldonnel Procedures

[IRL227]

Hi,

I'm interested to know what are the procedures for clearences at Baldonnel, and for approaches, does military radar usually vector the aircraft in for approach, and is this sometimes done by Dublin if certain runways are active? Would anyone have an example of transmissions used by ATC/IAC pilots?

I understand if there are restrictions around these procedures, but if anyone does know any information based around my above questions I'd really appreiate some info on it.

Cheers,

Jim

[Guinness]

IRL227,

don't know about Ireland but in The Neherlands people are allowed to use scanners.

There are "tapes" of a F-15E out of Lakenheath makin' an emergency landing on Soesterberg AFB and even the F-16MLU aircrew bail-out over the Vliehors range a year ago.

Normally military installations ( Air bases) are off limits for civvies.

I don't know about Ireland but in Dutch airspace the aircrew is in contact with "DUTCH MILL" which is the national millitary ATC.
When in the area of an AFB they'll contact the "tower" for e.g. headings, windspeed, view etc.
The "tower" talks them in when they are not using the ILS.

Again.... this is The Netherlands and NATO procedures.

Hope this helps.

Guinness

[Guinness]

BTW,

why are you using the "international" radioname of the SF-260 which made a forcelanding in '91??

Just curious.

Guinness

[IRL227]

Thanks for the info Guinness, though what I'm looking for is examples of transmissions to get an idea of how the procedures work at and around Baldonnel, or even an explanation of those procedures. I've listened to Dublin ATC on liveatc.net and heard some transmissions of aircraft going into Baldonnel, but I don't have a scanner so I'm not able to listen in to Baldonnel ATC in particular.

Btw, when choosing my username, I wanted to use a callsign of my favourite IAC aircraft, and 227 just sprung to mind, I wasn't aware it was involved in that crash.

[Hyper Crispy]

There are a number of procedures around Baldonnel, mainly focussed on runway 11. The ILS is self positioned and controlled only by radar for separation. If there is training traffic or a busy IFR circuit, most procedures on this runway commence from the DONEB hold to join the ILS final at approx 11 DME. VOR DMEs are similar and commence from the same hold. Surveillance Radar Approaches mean more radar radio traffic and are a bit busier. The usual would be 'this is radar vectors for a surveillance radar approach runway 11 at Baldonnel with a right hand turn in terminating at 2 nautical miles, OCA 1050 feet'. This would be acknowledged by the aircraft with a read back. Another example would be 'Final decent will commence 5 nautical miles from touchdown with a 3 degree glidepath' This allows the pilot to carry out a quick mental check to assess what his rate of descent has to be to achieve this depending on his groundspeed. Other IF calls are all standard and would generally be as you have already heard at Dublin.

[Irish251]

Baldonnel handle their own local traffic but, now that Dublin airspace generally is so busy, Dublin Approach Radar normally provides vectoring, descent clearances etc. until inbound aircraft are visual with Baldonnel.  

En route departures from Baldonnel have to have their departures co-ordinated with Dublin to ensure that the necessary separation is achieved.  I think Baldonnel is getting an ILS soon so that will presumably mean a requirement for inbounds to be established on the ILS several miles out.

You would not need an expensive scanner to receive Baldonnel frequencies - one of the cheap twist-dial receivers would do.  I will not post the frequencies here but recourse to www.worldaerodata.com will provide details on Baldonnel and many much more sensitive military aviation installations internationally - for example, Baghdad and Kabul!

http://worldaerodata.com/wad.cgi?id=IZ35813&sch=baghdad

http://worldaerodata.com/wad.cgi?id=AF94313&sch=kabul

[Fouga]

When the IAC had the 75Year Anniversary they brought out a Souvenir brochure and in it was a Day in the life of ATC at Bal which included PAR Approaches to bal by a Fouga.

[IRL227]

Quote

'this is radar vectors for a surveillance radar approach runway 11 at Baldonnel with a right hand turn in terminating at 2 nautical miles, OCA 1050 feet'

Could you explain what happens in the last bit, 'with a right handturn in terminating at 2nm, OCA 1050ft'? And when you say the procedures are mainly focused on runway 11, why is this? seen as the winds are for most of the time, for runway 29?

Sorry if I'm bombarding ye with questions here, but would you be also able to give an example of how a clearence is given to an aircraft(s) on the ground for normal flights or formation flights? Is it similar to clearences given by Dublin or are there notible differences in the transmissions?

Cheers for the info so far!

Regards,

Jim

[Flyboy]

As a pilot (PPL) I would like to know why someone wants such detailed information. I had to learn, study and pass an R/T exam as part of my PPL course, and I learned and understood what was meant by all the seemingly strange R/T transmissions. I would suggest no-more information is given our in such a public domain.

[IRL227]

Quote (Flyboy @ 28 Mar. 2007,05:27)

As a pilot (PPL) I would like to know why someone wants such detailed information. I had to learn, study and pass an R/T exam as part of my PPL course, and I learned and understood what was meant by all the seemingly strange R/T transmissions. I would suggest no-more information is given our in such a public domain.

Don't worry I'm not a CIA agent looking for this info '> . Personally, I've got a big interest in aviation and I'm hoping to enroll at PTC in Waterford, but I'm also interested in the simulation/virtual side of things, and, using Microsoft's Flight Simulator, I and about 200,000 others around the world simulate real ATC and flying procedures on an online network, and its partly through this and through flight lessons that I know a lot about the real procedures used by ATC at Dublin and other airports in Ireland, but I know very little about military procedures, despite living on the flightpath of runway 29 at Baldonnel. I'm part of the Irish division of that network and I'm wanting to simulate Baldonnel ATC but can't really with the little knowledge I have of procedures there, which is why I'm asking these questions.

[Pink Panther]

Baldonnel already has an ILS approach to 11 if I remember correctly and VOR Approaches. Giving out such detailed info if you want to call it that really is no big geal. The procudures are all published on the IF approach plates. I have been in aircraft that have flown ILS approaches to Bal on numerous occasions. It is quite straight forward. Dublin can radar vector you for the ILS to BAL. sometimes you talk to Dublin APP, Dub STH, Military radar, or the tower at Bal, sometimes you don't. It just depends on the time of day, or the day of the week. It's all relatively straight forward, nothing top secret about it.  '>

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi there
IRL 227, the instruction about radar vectors,etc is simple enough.Dublin radar would be giving the pilot heading changes to point him at the Baldonnel active runway.When he is on an intercept heading, the civil controller would hand him over to the local mil controller.The controller in Baldonnel would then guide the pilot along a glidepath and provide verbal lateral and vertical guidance, until the pilot saw the runway.It's a near-obsolete guidance system and an ILS is far superior. The OCA is the Obstacle Clearance Altitude, below which the piot may not descend until cleared.
There's no mystery attached to Irish mil ATC;their procedures are essentially the same as civvie procedures,except some people like to make a big deal about it.
regards
GttC

[IRL227]

Lads thanks very much for all the info, really appreciate it! '>

[nibog]

Although Baldonnel wouldn't have as many movements as Dublin or even Weston, the Military traffic is infinately more complex. All Weston and Dublin traffic is fairly standard and is carried out in accordance with the rules of the air, whereas military traffic is more often than not, a non-standard mix of organised chaos, and is not always in compliance with rules of the air.

Local traffic procedures at Baldonnel consist of 800', 1300' 1800'glide and 2800'pfl circuits. Fixed wing and helis, sometimes all at the same time, often with Instrument approaches inbound to 11.

Runway 11 is the most commonly used runway because of the airspace configuration. There is no Instrument approach to 05 due to terrain, and approaches to runway 23 tend to cause mass confusion and panic at dublin airport. Runway 29 is used, but usually only when traffic is coming back from UK or Europe. The Military training areas are all west of baldonnel, and it makes sense for them to approach 11, to circle to land on the duty runway.

The level of restriction (if any) is dependant on the weather conditions, type of approach, and local traffic at the time. Instrument Approach Plates and Departure Procedures to/from Baldonnel are NOT published in the AIP. General Aviation pilots would be familiar with military radio frequencies and NAV AIDs, but most would not be flying the procedures or even be aware of the details.

[GoneToTheCanner]

hi there
NIBOG
I have to take issue with some of your statements.Your assertion that Air Corps traffic is more complex is complete balls.If you think the Don is busy,with helis, large and small fixed-wing,etc, then you have never been to Weston or perhaps any other airport on the globe.In all my aviation experience, in several countries and many, many airports and many aircraft, the least user-friendly airport is Baldonnel.I have been in countless airports where all manner of traffic was succesfully integrated and operated safely, both civil and military, quite simply because the ATC and pilots operated with a real-world attitude, as in, the airspace belongs to us all, so lets share it sensibly.I well remember the Don imposing 3000' restricted airspace, just so an Alouette could lift off and fly at 500' over Dublin.How do I know? I was in the Alouette.Even the pilot was embarrassed, as Dublin had to reroute commercial traffic.They have stopped that practise now but it was a serious inconvenience to many people and the Don ATC had to be dragged into the 20th century. In my direct experience of Dub ATC, they do not panic when Baldonnel operates, they merely shrug their collective shoulders and get on with it.I also remember Don ATC freaking out if a Rallye at Weston nudged their precious airspace and then denying it when Don aircraft busted Weston's airspace.I have flown in much more complex, busier airspace than Baldonnel and have seen, at first hand, how it can be done without treating civvies as the enemy or assuming a greater importance than one's neighbours.I suggest you spend some time at a real airport and see how it's done.
regards
GttC