Author Topic: Who are the REAL enemy?  (Read 1242 times)

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Offline SousaTeuszii

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Who are the REAL enemy?
« on: July 09, 2007, 01:13:35 pm »
Looking through Flyinginireland.com I spotted a post by RV-Blue showing this link:

http://www.flightglobal.com/article....le.html

It basically shows a drug running aircraft being shot down. TrickyDicky on the same site agrees with the tactics, do you?


In light of the recent smuggling events and having contemplated the issue I too have to agree. Consider that billions are spent in so many countries to stop fanatics from setting off bombs that may kill and maim a relatively small number of people, and that the enforcement of these policies include the use of direct and lethal armed intervention. However drugs kill and maim whole societies, 100s if not 1000s of people every day, yet the leaniency shown towards these people is outrageous.
At present there are Casa patrol aircraft, armed PC9s for interception and AW139s for providing 'welcoming parties' but none are used to combat what is prehaps the most 'clear and present danger' to the island of Ireland and its people.
Of course rules of engagement should be followed to prevent accidential destruction of innocent aircraft or boats but beyond this if a drug runner refuses to stop his cargo should be considered as lethal and they should be delt with accordingly. Just my 2 cents.
ST

Offline pym

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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2007, 02:00:22 pm »
Personally, I'd agree with you. The issue of drugs coming into this country is an important one. The Defence Forces raised the issue a few years back if I remember correctly, stating that they believed light aircraft were also involved.

If there is good intelligence that a vessel or aircraft is smuggling weapons or drugs and they don't stop when confronted, I believe the Defence Forces should have the right to open fire.

The manner in which the drugs were discovered, should also bring home to people how woefully underfunded the Navy is. They need more than 8 ships, I would also advocate more CN-235's - or investing in UAV's for maritime patrol. We possess a huge chunk of ocean and it's in our own interests that we police it properly.

On a slight tangent, I think someone mentioned the possibility of a German Learjet target tug being hired for the Air Corps to practice air to air gunnery. Whatever happened to this?





Offline Silver

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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2007, 01:38:32 am »
Agree.

AC PC-9's should be used in regular (well publicised!) anti-drug smuggling patrols ....if only to show would-be smugglers that we have the means/interest in tackling them.

Also agree that we need more Naval patrol vessels ...both full-time and Naval Reserve vessels.
A 'Coast Watch' role for Naval Reserve personnel should also be considered.

Offline clog

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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2007, 08:51:37 pm »
I fully agree lads,

In light of the 100-300 million euro worth of cocaine that was "found" in the sea. This was one just one of many drug smuggeling opperations that take place every year, only this time it went wrong, how many of these opperations do go right each year though, you have to ask yourself. With some more frequent patrols and propper intel (UAV)a few shippings should/can be stopped. I know the 2nd Casa in in Spain to be updated but 2 unarmed patrol aircraft and a hundreds of miles of sea we need to protect? Not enough if you ask me.

Offline FiannaFail

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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2007, 01:20:31 am »
I agree 100% with Silver. Expand the Naval Service and An Slua Muiri and reopen the observation posts from the Emergency to be maned by Slua/ Coastguard staff 24/7.  The NS should have at least 12 ships although their present complement is a big improvement on the situation years ago.  Our Air Corps also nneds an expanded Marine Squad.  Certainly armed aircraft and we should not be afraids to use them against this drug pushing murderers! 'thumbsup'
FiannaFail
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Offline Downunder

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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2007, 11:57:00 am »
From an Australian perspective the authoraties here have had very good success in keeping large quantaties of certain drugs such as Heroin & Cocaine from entering the country. It does cost a lot of money and involves the utilisation and coordination of all the protective services, State & Fedral Police, Customs, Navy, Air Force etc. and the use of Over The Horizon Radar, X Ray, human intervention and sniffer dogs. The dogs have been a great success and can process a hugh amount of passengers their luggage and cargo at ports.

A lot of the drugs do come from Asia, however the fact that the death penalty is enforced in some of these countries also acts as a deterrant. Last year an Australian citizen was executed in Singapore. There was another incident where 9 Australians were known by authoraries to be leaving Bali carrying Heroin. Rather than allowing them passage to Australia and picking them up on arrival the Feds alerted the Indonesian Police and they are now facing the death penalty. The current Government does not go out of its way to assist such people, making it known that it is well publicised what the consequences of drug carrying are.

One of the bigest problens here now is the synthetic drugs that can be manufactured locally.

There is no question that drugs are destroying societies and the lives of people all over the world and Governments need to develope a range stratagies to combat this menace. If they dont spend the money on prevention they are going to be spending it on health care and prisons. Personal responsability must also click in somewhere, there is ample information available to people as to the effects and consequences of taking such drugs.

Recently a prominent and highly respected Melbourne QC was found in an Adelaide hotel room in an unconscious state. The QC died 11 days later. A woman was charged with administering a drug of dependence to him. It is said that illegal drug use is rampant within the legal profession and police are now having a good hard look at the claims.

Drugs know no bounds and wealth and education are no guarantee of protection. If part of the fight againts the drug producers and runners requires Lethal Force then lets do it sooner rather than later, we owe it to our children.

Offline FMolloy

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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2007, 02:09:42 pm »
Two questions:

1. How much of the drugs coming into the country are coming in by air.

2. How much of the drugs coming in by air are being smuggled in on legitimate commerical aircraft without the knowledge of those on board, aircraft that cannot be shot down.
D'oh!

Offline SousaTeuszii

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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2007, 04:03:14 pm »
F Molloy,
I doubt if very much is coming in on unscheduled aircraft. It is however being transported into the UK and Europe by this method from our shores.
I would imagine that the majority coming in is by sea. This however does not negate the use of the Armed Forces or lethal force. Bullets are as good againest boats as aircraft.
ST

Offline FMolloy

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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2007, 04:36:10 pm »
If drugs are going out of the country on aircraft then the easiest method of intercepting them would be to do so on the ground, either in Ireland or at the destination. Likewise, if you're going to stop drugs at sea the best way would be to use the NS.



D'oh!

Offline FiSe

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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2007, 06:27:15 pm »
You are absolutely right. Drugs on boards of regular civil airliners and ferries are, or shoul be, a matter of custom checks and police / garda monitoring and investigation. And I think this is what's going on.

I think, that point Sousa makes is, that our defence forces, either Air Corps or Navy or Army should have enough of resources to carry armed patrols around our borders and the power and ability to use force against smuggling gangs, if neccessary and under some circumstancies.

This link, showing Columbian plane scoring against drug carrier, is here to illustrate and not telling us to shoot down any civvie aircraft which carries drugs on board.




Non multi sed multa

Fouga

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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2007, 12:58:45 am »
Quote (SousaTeuszii @ 15 July 2007,07:03)
I doubt if very much is coming in on unscheduled aircraft. It is however being transported into the UK and Europe by this method from our shores.
I would imagine that the majority coming in is by sea.

True but remember the Weston scandal and how long was that going on?

Offline SousaTeuszii

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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2007, 07:54:19 am »
I would imagine that if a charter aircraft is supected of running drugs, the pilots, unwittingly carrying the stuff, would divert to a specified airfield if ordered to or if diverted by ATC. They have no reason not to.
The issue here is the illegal transportion of drugs in aircraft rented, purchased or stolen for the operation. These pilots flaunt the rules because they know the consequencies of being caught. There should however also be consequencies for lack of compliance and I dont mean a stern talking to!
ST

Offline 202

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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2007, 02:02:35 pm »
Shooting down is silly Top Gun stuff. Far more effective to shadow them to landing position (they have to land or come ashore at some point) and be ready to intercept. A vast amount of forensic evidence and intelligence from interrogation than then be gathered to help break up networks and interdict other imminent supply operations. Shooting down would only destroy the evidence.

Offline SousaTeuszii

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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2007, 04:54:01 pm »
And as a deterent send then to jail for 6 months ( 2 months before parole) living in a cell with a tele, toilet etc and pay them to cook their own food!

Your plan certainly has merit but I still believe that there should be an ultimate step if for instance the offending aircraft / boat refusing to land and runs for international waters.
ST

Fouga

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« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2007, 11:21:12 pm »
Quote (SousaTeuszii @ 19 July 2007,07:54)
And as a deterent send then to jail for 6 months ( 2 months before parole) living in a cell with a tele, toilet etc and pay them to cook their own food!

How about a cell with just a bed and toilet and sink, nothing else. And 6 months with no parole. And when they come out they must report to a Gardai Station every day for the rest of their lives.