What next aircraft?

[clog]

I Totally agree with PYM,

Although the Army is now speeding things up regarding gear (although i'm still waiting for my rain gear) it is still a joke. I'm a member of 3 AD, we got issued safely boots 2 month ago only because a fella in the unit had a 5.5 ton Bofor rolled over his foot and broke several bones. We wouldn't be wearing safety boots if this hadn't happend. The point is, we get the gear we need after accidents happen.  

[pym]

Sorry for going off on the above rant lads - lack of sleep tends to cause me to go off like that.

I have to say, looking from the outside, things seems to be on a gradual up for the defense forces in terms of equipment & with the integrated reserve.

For instance I'm happy to see the government pressing ahead with the blue/green ship & even murmuring about a second one in the class. Of course, there have been false dawns before - particularly in the 1980's with the Dauphin & LE Eithnes never built sister ship.

But hopefully things work out this time.

The basic fact is that if we as a country continue to expect and ask our troops to go into harms way, either for the protection of our country, or to help a foreign country as part of a UN Force, those soldiers, air crew and naval personnel deserve the best equipment money can buy.

Anything else is a national shame.

[SousaTeuszii]

Hi Pym,
While I sympathise with your arguement I am afraid that I cannot agree on many of the points.
The men and women of the defence forces are rightly entitled to the best equipment in the world, for the tasks that they are expected to do. Currently the only place that the DF will see action is overseas and it is here that the money should be spent.The defence forces are such in name only. They are not expected to defend Ireland from outside aggression because lets face it there is none, nor is such a political shift in Northern Europe ever likely to happen. Reality must intervene here somewhere.
The major task of the Defence Forces at home has been the protection of the state from subversive elements (most of whom are now tucked up in bed). What use is 90% of modern military equipment againest a few lads with AKs in 'ballyclappers'.
The terrorist threat is an asymetric conflict. It dosent follow the rules and no amount of military might can stop it. Unless the country is willing to order the shooting down of a civil airliner it has no need for jets. Even if they were willing to, how would you identify an aircraft as hostile and then shoot it down with a SAM system with no visual intercept? What else would we expect to use a SAM system for? Posturing? Puffing out our chests?
You are right that we have a duty to protect our country but this should be to a reasonable level based on actual or precived future threats however we also have a duty of care to the people of the state. Are you going to tell the people of Ireland that they cannot have regional cancer care because we need to protect ourselves from an unseen and unknown enemy?
Finally I agree that the DF must show that they can utilise what they have before getting anything else. The problem however isnt just money, its mind set. Many people in some parts of the DF dont want to do high tempo ops, 24hr rosters, weekend work etc. Why would you when your pay isnt performance related and there is no accountability for waste and inefficency, It would just mean more work, as if.....
If you want a current example of this just ask yourself why a 43 year old single engine helicopter is engaged in mountain operations to assist the Mayo MRT despite the fact that the tax payers bought 6 new helicopters to replace them. Do they not fly at weekends? Thats not money its mind set, and it needs to change drastically.
ST

[FiannaFail]

Quote (Old Redeye @ 18 July 2007,03:16)

Sousa and Pym have it pretty much right on as usual.  1-2 more 135's in the near term to fulfill most training/admin support roles + 4-5 AW-149's for overseas ops eventually - after maintenance, crewing and ops issues are sorted.  139's for tactical training and national missions. Obtain a C-295/CN-235-300 or B-737QC.   No more PC-9's.  No Harpoons.  No fast jets.   Institute regular tactical helicopter/special ops training exercises/exchanges with UK, France, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Italy, etc.  Work towards a 3-4 ship deployable AW-149 tactical helicopter capability interoperable with EU partners and Naval Service Multi-role Vessel within five years.

Was a away in Italy for tghe past 2 weeks so sorry for the delay in replying to red eye. Why no more PC-9Ms? Who would say no to a further 8 if we got the chance? Why no more PC-9s?
FiannaFail
 

[SousaTeuszii]

Because the ones we have are under utilised and there is no need for more. There are more important things to spend money on.
ST

[Flyboy]

I agree, why would Ireland want PC9's. They are afterall a training aircraft so why have so many. To be honest this tread has been done over and over so many times it should be called "What would you buy if you won the Lottery.

[Old Redeye]

Hear! Hear! Flyboy and Sousa.  No more PC-9's!

Eight PC-9's to train 5-6 ab initio pilots and 2-3 IP's every year is overkill.  Yes, they can also conduct CAS in a low threat environment, but against what threat within Ireland exactly - and yes they can perform air policing against helicopters and light fixed wing aircraft flying below 25,000 feet, and do so periodically.  Otherwise they are just plain fun to fly and act as a recruiting tool to draw potential pilot candidates and others to serve in the Corps - hence the airshow circuit they spend so much time on.  

I think a deployable CAS capability should be developed based on the PC-9's for duty in places like Africa in support of future peacekeeping missions.  A three-ship package should be enough to ensure availability of a two-ship flight for helicopter and convoy escort tasks, armed reconaissance, etc., armed with guns and rockets.  Incorporate NVG training to have a night capability.  A pair of armed PC-9's would be enough to stop most dust-ups that occur in African PK scenarios.  If a depoyable capability is implemented, maybe there would be justification for a couple more, but otherwise absoloutely not.

[FiannaFail]

Quote (SousaTeuszii @ 30 July 2007,14:16)

Because the ones we have are under utilised and there is no need for more. There are more important things to spend money on. ST

So why do we need an Air Corps then? What should  our role be? And why is there always more important things to spend money on  than on our nation's armed forces?  Should we have a Defence Force anyway or just a Coast Guard Service like in Iceland?  Couldn't the Garda Siochana do the job of the Army now that terrorism has gone away "you know"? Interesting thoughts mentioned above, love to here your views expanded on these points that some of you seem to hold guys!
FiannaFail

[Pink Panther]

If you want a current example of this just ask yourself why a 43 year old single engine helicopter is engaged in mountain operations to assist the Mayo MRT despite the fact that the tax payers bought 6 new helicopters to replace them. Do they not fly at weekends? Thats not money its mind set, and it needs to change drastically.
ST

ST
 I could be reading into part of your last thread too much.
According to the Irish Times the Allouette was used for symbolic reasons (it's last tasking there before retirement). I too don't understand  the logic of using a single engine heli for air medivac purposes  when newer twins are availible including an S-61 nearby. Is it possible an A3 was sent there because in all probability the pilot (crew are junior in rank) to pilots flying the newer shinier stuff and it is these guys who just do not want to work the mundane jobs, late, or weekends make the decisions what is used. Is it not all about leading by example.

[SousaTeuszii]

Hi Pink Panther,
If the Irish Air Corps ever want to be taken seriously they need to get rid of this nostalgic attitude. The AIII served as one of the best investments ever made in this country but it has been replaced. The Irish people did not fork out tens of millions to replace a machine and then see it still in use! a major part of the sales drive by the Air Corps was the unacceptability of civil operations, ie AA, in a single engine helicopter, yet when they get twins they continue to use AIIIs on these ops. If nothing else it shows a blatent two fingers to the other wings of the DF who fight for funds.

Fianna Fail,
Firstly I believe that there is a place for the Defence Forces but it should not exist just becasue........and without reason.
Ill put it to you like this, The Army and Navy provide a service to the country and the DF in general and continue to fight to progress this position with LOGICAL and fundamental arguments. Why are the Navy getting a blue / green vessel? Because they had foresight to see an actual requirement and fought for it. Why are the Army getting new equipment? Same reason
That brings us to the Air Corps. You tell me, what are the Air Corps providing to the Irish state in general and to the rest of the DF in particular. Before you answer that, subtract the roles currently 'fulfilled' by the Air Corps that can be more effectively and efficently provided by a civil contractor. Whats left? I think you may just have answered your own question.
I am not saying that there is no place for the Air Corps but in modern society a group of people cannot continue to waste public money just because thats the way it has always been. There are many roles that the Air Corps can take part in without even leaving Ireland that cannot be subverted by civil operators becasue of the nature of the job but they are not doing them, they are not even trying. Why? My personnal option is that they just could not be bothered. Too many people in cushy jobs with no accountability, its not worth the hassle.
If that attitude persists then the government needs to contract out the ineffiecent services. If that leaves no Air Corps then there is only one group to blame, the Air Corps.
ST

[Pink Panther]

ST

I have to agree with alot of what you are saying. Now, you cannot tar everybody with the same brush, but the Aer Corp have been provided with alot of new equipement in recent years.There just seems to be a mind set there that is hard to change, for whatever reason (unless its formation flying of one kind or another for a photo shoot of course). I watched the A3 on RTE news Sunday night doing the medivac from Croagh Patrick.The quick glimpse I got inside the heli, (and I stand to be corrected on this) struct me how sparce it was. No oxygen, no defibulator, no stretcher which is availible on other Aer Corp and Coast guard heli's including EMT's.Is this how things are done.
You mention some other things too ST. Maybe the Corp are their own worse enemy. If things don't change you could see SAR top cover going out to tender. As I understand it that area of expertise is a little hit and miss at the mo from both the RAF & IAC

[SousaTeuszii]

Pink Panther,
I cannot tar everybody because I know that there is a large portion of the Air Corps would love nothing more then to see it progress into an organisation capable of any tasking that is thrown at it, 24hrs a day, in this country or another. Unfortunately they become hamstrung, disillusioned and leave. They are of course replaced by the next generation of enthusiasm but the same happens again.This isnt a phenomenon specific to one rank or another its across the board.
I dont want answers but I would ask each member to truthfully answer the following for themselves and reflect on what it means for the organisation.

Tasked with conducting an exercise with an overnight in a field (not that its likely to happen) whats the first question likely to be asked?
1. Where do we sleep?
2. What about food / water?
3. What about maintenance?
4. What sub rate do we get for this?

I know my answer and its not the one of a true operational unit but maybe thats just my slant.

With Reference to the AIII I cant comment as I dont know whats was in it but I imagine that there are very few medically trained personnel left in No 3 so kit would be a waste of room. I imagine it was only being used as an aerial truck for the MRT and if they are happy that it is sufficent for patient care then so be it, its their party but it is on the Air Corps head if the AIII had an aeronautical mishap that could have been prevented with a twin or higher powered aircraft.
ST

[Pink Panther]

ST

Thanks for your enlightening threads.

PP.

[Old Redeye]

Here you go.  A CASA C-295M should be the next aircraft.  Same cockpit/avionics as the 235MPA's when they come out of their mid-life update shortly.  Required to support multi-national training exercises with Euro allies, particularly for the evolving Nordic Battegroup and the RW, and to provide rotational intra-theater tactical airlift in support of international ops - such as supporting an EU/UN force in-country in a place like Liberia or Chad.  The C-172's should not require replacement, other than for the fact they require old-fashioned AVGAS?  They should have a lot of years left in them and are fine for what they are used for, which should include flight screening of prospective pilot candidates.

[Taj]

Certainely agree with Old Redeye on most points. Basic tactical transport is the next step for the Corps. The C-295 would be an ideal first step, commonality with the CN-235 and gives a capability up to a certain level without going to the expense and complexity of something like the Herc or A400 etc. Learn to walk before you run. However, the Cessnas do need replacement. They are 35 years old and the fleet is depleted.