Author Topic: What next aircraft?  (Read 8745 times)

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Offline Buran

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What next aircraft?
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2007, 02:05:51 pm »
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Whats Irelands bloody problem with "Jets" for god sake are we afraid to move forward.. 'banghead'


Seriously, are you ... Jeremy Clarkson?
He really annoys me when he comes out with "the concorde, the most technologically advanced civilian aircraft, is being retired...".
FFS the A320 is more technologically advanced. Its just not as fast or as pointy.

Let me ask you this. At home we use a 15 year old hand push lawnmower to cut the grass. So should we 'get with the future' and get a ride on, or at least a flymo?
Or should we look at the actual requirement in hand, and continue to use the perfect tool to cut the 10 x 25 ft of grass that we have?

Offline Flyboy

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« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2007, 04:12:52 pm »
Is that CASA demo'ing a belly landing or what !!!

Fouga

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« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2007, 10:17:28 pm »
Quote (Buran @ 08 Aug. 2007,05:05)
Let me ask you this. At home we use a 15 year old hand push lawnmower to cut the grass. So should we 'get with the future' and get a ride on, or at least a flymo?

Would you put a Fouga up against a Civvy Airliner of would you rather an F-16?

Offline Old Redeye

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« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2007, 01:29:04 pm »
Can anyone tell us how many intercepts have been ordered of civil aircraft entering or leaving Irish airspace since 9/11 2001?  Any details on said intercepts also appreciated - types of a/c invovled and outcome, and where - over the Atlantic or the Irish Sea.

If none then there's your requirement put to bed once and for all.   I suspect there is no justifiable requirement for Ireland to maintain a national fast jet aerial intercept capability in any form and see no practical problem with current UK-Eire and France-Eire air defence agreements.

If I may cross over into the other thread for just a moment, Irish Air Corps resources - people and money - are better spent on world-class capabilities that directly contribute to Irish defence force domestic and international operations.  For example, an Irish Brigadier General has just assumed command of Multi-National Task Force-Centre in Kosovo, which includes an Irish company battegroup along with Swedes, Finns and Norwegians.  The outgoing Swedish brigadier had Swedish Bo-105 helicopters at his disposal, while Norwegian Bell 412's supported the previous commander.  Wouldn't it be great if Ireland could pony up 2-3 tactical helos to support an Irish command lead?

Offline Buran

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« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2007, 01:57:05 pm »
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Would you put a Fouga up against a Civvy Airliner of would you rather an F-16?


What are we talking here, Top Trumps?

What i'm saying is that it annoys me when people want to define our military force like its some sort of international 'ours is better then theirs' contest. You'd swear that some people are embarrassed when abroad at airshows, talking to photographers of other nationalities, about our own defense forces; and think that this should be the metric used to justify spending tax payers money.

I agree with FiannaFail starting the other thread about what the roles should be. Because thats the first thing. You define the roles, then the requirements to meet those roles, then the equipment necessary to meet those requirements.
And it should be done on a risk/cost/benefit basis, put into a big report that can be released to the public, and let it stand on its own two legs (or not as the case may be).

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2007, 02:42:38 pm »
Quote (Old Redeye @ 09 Aug. 2007,04:29)
Can anyone tell us how many intercepts have been ordered of civil aircraft entering or leaving Irish airspace since 9/11 2001?  Any details on said intercepts also appreciated - types of a/c invovled and outcome, and where - over the Atlantic or the Irish Sea.

If none then there's your requirement put to bed once and for all.   I suspect there is no justifiable requirement for Ireland to maintain a national fast jet aerial intercept capability in any form and see no practical problem with current UK-Eire and France-Eire air defence agreements.

I think that just because Ireland has had no intercepts ordered  of civil aircraft entering or leaving Irish airspace, if that is the case, it would be rather naive to think that it is not going to be the case at sometime.  There are a lot of transatlantic traffic each day and what if a threat was to materialise on one of these flights and it had to be escorted to shannon, for example, it being the closest airport?  Weather this justifies the purchase of aircraft to deal with such an incident, I don't know.  I think we would still rely on RAF help as we do at the moment with top cover missions off the west coast for SAR incidents where RAF Nimrods are used.

Offline clan

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« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2007, 03:28:07 pm »
I have been reading with interest and maybe I am been stupid here, but we are the most western island facing the Atlantic and we have considerable air traffic over our island, we should be able to deploy jets to any incident in that region. If we do not see the need for them, why did we buy the PC 9's what  warranted the expense of these expensive trainers and what are there roles, training for what? On the transport aircraft I can see requirement as long as they could double up the casa's for dual roles, but what exactly can a C 239 carry and how good is it to transport equipment, it does not look like it can carry an awful lot, more helicopters yes but why buy brand new, second hand or nearly new would do just fine. Did'nt the RAF take over 5 Merlins from the Danish airforce, could we not do something similar with Pumas or something similar. Cessna's should have been replaced a long time ago with some medium range twin engined aircraft. But before you think about new aircraft, the AC needs its house in order, and uses what it actually has. I think I read somewhere a comment from Dermot Earley, that he was not sure what the AC do to assist the state unlike the army or Naval service who do there bit etc. My impression as a Jo Soap, is the AC is a  9-5, 5 day a week flying social club. I may be miles off but I do not think I am. Buy second hand, yes some risks, but not a lot and you get more for your buck, but before you even thinking about buying a new Tyre, sort the staff levels out , make shifts, off site training, foreign training and be a 24 hour 7 day a week force like other air corps around the world.
Who mentioned Jets

Offline FiannaFail

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« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2007, 10:32:15 pm »
Quote (Old Redeye @ 09 Aug. 2007,04:29)
Can anyone tell us how many intercepts have been ordered of civil aircraft entering or leaving Irish airspace since 9/11 2001?  Any details on said intercepts also appreciated - types of a/c invovled and outcome, and where - over the Atlantic or the Irish Sea.

If none then there's your requirement put to bed once and for all.   I suspect there is no justifiable requirement for Ireland to maintain a national fast jet aerial intercept capability in any form and see no practical problem with current UK-Eire and France-Eire air defence agreements.

If I may cross over into the other thread for just a moment, Irish Air Corps resources - people and money - are better spent on world-class capabilities that directly contribute to Irish defence force domestic and international operations.  For example, an Irish Brigadier General has just assumed command of Multi-National Task Force-Centre in Kosovo, which includes an Irish company battegroup along with Swedes, Finns and Norwegians.  The outgoing Swedish brigadier had Swedish Bo-105 helicopters at his disposal, while Norwegian Bell 412's supported the previous commander.  Wouldn't it be great if Ireland could pony up 2-3 tactical helos to support an Irish command lead?

Earlier this year an Aer Lingus New York flight to Dublin was diverted to Shannon following a phoned in bomb alert made in Dublin. There were no Air Corps planes available to intercept and guide into Shannon.  Luckly it was a hoax. If it wasn't or if the plane had been highjacked and was heading for a building such as Shannon Airport or the US Embassy what would we have done? I suggest it is better to be prepared rather than be left waiting for something to happen before all of us start saying we should have been prepared. We are on the edge of Europe and we too could be a target for international terrorists.  It like saying that the Naval Service should not be interested in drug smuggling!
FiannaFail 'pilot_cry'




Patricia Guerin

Fouga

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« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2007, 01:42:02 am »
Quote (Buran @ 09 Aug. 2007,04:57)
You'd swear that some people are embarrassed when abroad at airshows, talking to photographers of other nationalities, about our own defense forces

Maybe they are.

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2007, 01:13:26 pm »
Quote (FiannaFail @ 09 Aug. 2007,13:32)
Earlier this year an Aer Lingus New York flight to Dublin was diverted to Shannon following a phoned in bomb alert made in Dublin. There were no Air Corps planes available to intercept and guide into Shannon.  Luckly it was a hoax. If it wasn't or if the plane had been highjacked and was heading for a building such as Shannon Airport or the US Embassy what would we have done? I suggest it is better to be prepared rather than be left waiting for something to happen before all of us start saying we should have been prepared. We are on the edge of Europe and we too could be a target for international terrorists.  It like saying that the Naval Service should not be interested in drug smuggling!
FiannaFail 'pilot_cry'

One thing is that there wasn't any AC aircraft available to intercept and escourt it to Shannon, but more importantly, with a top speed of a PC-9 at around 360 MPH it would never be able to match the 600 MPH of a 747 if it was determined to do damage.   Don't think for one minute that the people that have these malicous intents in mind don't know that!

Offline Buran

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« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2007, 01:26:43 pm »
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Quote (Buran @ 09 Aug. 2007,04:57)
You'd swear that some people are embarrassed when abroad at airshows, talking to photographers of other nationalities, about our own defense forces

Maybe they are.


Theres nothing wrong with discussion, and forming your own opinion (hence this website). And if that opinion is happens to be embarrassment, then so be it.

But my point is, when you want to spend tax payers money, you have to be impassionate and rigorous. And it has to be seen to be impassionate and rigorous.

If we did this with the PPARS and the evoting systems, we wouldnt have ended up with either of those messes.


PS Maybe some other nations should feel embarrassed about having a bloated and under-utilised military thats main reason to exist as it is today is historical and the government hasn't the stomach to make politically unpopular staff cuts in what is essentially one of the main employers in the state.

I for one don't feel embarrassed about the principle of having a lean force that only addresses the specific roles that it has been tasked with.

Offline Old Redeye

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« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2007, 01:35:39 pm »
If the IAC really requires jets (and I am not convinced), this is the right ansawer - the L-159 ALCA - performing a low-level flypast at Fairford.  

New aircraft are available right now at a good price - after ordering 72 the Czech AF downsized and now has 30+ up for sale, all factory fresh.  Excellent performance with modern American engine and avionics systems, including multi-mode radar and defensive aids suite.  Armed with AIM-9 sidewinders and a gun pack - along with a range of advanced air to surface capability, including laser guided bombs, Maverick missiles and rockets.  Easy to maintain and a simple conversion from the PC-9.  Five standard single-seat ALCA's and a single two-seat TL-159 would do the trick.  Czech 159's have earned a first-rate reputation in NATO air exercises.

Offline Dublin Spotter

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« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2007, 03:30:44 pm »
Another possibility in the light jet area is the Korean KT-1 or the latest ground attack version the XKT1.

The Turkish Airforce has just purchased 40 of the KT-1's
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Offline clog

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« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2007, 08:50:50 pm »
The Cech's have brand new upgraded L-159's for sale.  'buttrock'

Offline Pink Panther

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« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2007, 08:58:19 pm »
Quote (Dublin Spotter @ 15 Aug. 2007,15:30)
Another possibility in the light jet area is the Korean KT-1 or the latest ground attack version the XKT1.

The Turkish Airforce has just purchased 40 of the KT-1's

Why, this looks similar to the PC-9's.