What should the Major Air Corps Roles Be?

[FiannaFail]

In light of recent comments on other threads I would be interested in hearing all your views on what you think should be the major roles of the Air Corps.  I get the sense that some of you feel we shouldn't have the Air Corps and perhaps leave it to the RAF,USAF or even the French to look after us. If that's the case should we shuck it all in?  Or should we take our sovernity seriously and have a minimum Air Corps/Air Force?
FiannaFail
 

[SousaTeuszii]

In true Fianna Fail style you have refused to face the questions meated out in the afore mentioned threads. To deflect from your inability to do this you have started another thread in a disparaging and disrespectful manor, misquoting people and using inapproprite smileys.
If you cant debate what has been put forward in a adult and sensible manner I suggest you return to your fund raising tent at Ballybrit.
ST

[IRL227]

Quote (FiannaFail @ 01 Aug. 2007,22:52)

In light of recent comments on other threads I would be interested in hearing all your views on what you think should be the major roles of the Air Corps.  I get the sense that some of you feel we shouldn't have the Air Corps and perhaps leave it to the RAF,USAF or even the French to look after us. If that's the case should we shuck it all in?  Or should we take our sovernity seriously and have a minimum Air Corps/Air Force? FiannaFail

No we shouldn't chuck it all in, and I think even the biggest critic of IAC spending wouldn't make such a suggestion. The IAC needs jets, the public perception of fighter jets is to protect us from an invasion and because theres no chance of us being invaded theres therefore no need to have them, but this isn't the case. The IAC does not have the adaqete equipment to deal with a hijacked aircraft or an aircraft not communicating with ATC thats in Irish controlled airspace. Many would also argue that investing in fighter jets compromises our neutrality, well so does the USAF using Shannon Airport yet the government seem keen on letting them continue using it.

The fact is that countries like Sweden and Switzerland are also neutral countries yet they have invested in their air force and have a great air force there to defend them. I think its a complete joke that Ireland still relies on the RAF to carry out such roles as search & rescue where the Irish Coast Guard can't, I also think its a joke that in the event of a stray aircraft in Irish airspace posing a threat to this country, we have to rely on the RAF to come over and defend us. We are a fully independent state and should not have to rely on the forces of another country to defend us. It could be said that the IAC makes very good use of what they have but the fact remains they don't have enough, and if the navy can secure €180ml of funding for 3 new ships, surely the minister for defence can secure €50-60ml of funding for new jet aircraft? Its not as if the IAC has never had them, we've had several jet aircraft in the past so it'd be nothing new.

I can understand that TDs may be cautious about the idea of securing the money for new jets as the media may throw out headlines such as 'Not enough funding for hospital beds but enough for fighter jets', but we're past the election...
While some may see the RAF defending us as a way of saving costs, I and a lot of others see it as undermining the sovereignty of this country.

[Pink Panther]

I think its a complete joke that Ireland still relies on the RAF to carry out such roles as search & rescue where the Irish Coast Guard can't,

What is this about !!! Gan you supply us with the evidence please.

[SousaTeuszii]

PP,
The RAF do indeed help out in situations were the Irish Coast Guard aircraft cannot perform a particular long range urgent medivac mission. It must however be stated that ALL of these missions are conducted outside the ISARRZ. No nation is under any obligation to assist personnel in these areas. The RAF and RN willingly do it using Ireland as a westerly refuelling base and are able to do so with the longer range of the Seaking helicopters. These are NOT Irish missions that the IRCG have turned down. All missions in the ISARRZ can and are conducted by the IRCG with many taskings also taking place in the Clyde SAR region, i.e. the IRCG doing the Brits ops.

IRL227,
These jets are to defend us. From what? The only vauge notion of a threat is from terrorist quarters.
Firstly, if terrorists find a way through modern airport security do you really think they will waste that element of surprise on Ireland. No chance. theyll hit the UK or the US.
Secondly, Ireland does not have any long term static targets of terrorist importance that would be required to plan and implement such an attack. This type of attack is not a spare of the moment opportunistic attack, it is planned many years in advance and is useless againest fleeting targets.
Thirdly, say there is a gathering of major figures (a suitable target), its going to be close to a major airport ie Dublin, Shannon. In the event of an attack terrorists will utilise a fully fuel laden aircraft with the lowest given reaction time i.e. one from the nearest airport. If for instance this is Dublin how long do you think the Air Corps would have to be notified, get airborne and intercept a target? How long would it take an aircraft rolling of 28 to turn left and roll into the mansion house or other Dublin target target?
Basically we have no targets and even if we did jets could not defend them, thats the job of a point defence weapon in the hands of people willing to use it. The money would be better spent on airport security and intelligence lead operations. We have no requirement for jets other then a misplaced feeling of national pride.
By the way what jets are you going to get for €50-60mil and bear in mind that this is a tiny portion of the overall costs of operating interception capable jets that generally have very low fatigue lives. Its not as simple as forking out a load of dough to buy them if you  then cant afford to operate them.
While on the budget, election or not, hospital beds are in more dire need in this country then jets. Over the next ten years without a vast improvement in the health services more people will suffer from lack of treatment then in this 'golden bebe' terrorist attack.

Unfortunately the Air Corps do not make adequate use of their current inventory, new or old. I asked FF to name the current services provided to the state that could not be done more effectively and efficently by civil contractors. Maybe you could do the same. Im not saying the Air Corps should be got rid of, Im saying it seriously needs to get its current house in order before any extensions are added.

Lastly, the Air Corps have many avenues of approach to become a service that provides true usefullness to the state without wasting public money chasing phantoms (ghosts not F4s) that they couldnt catch even if they exisited.

[Taj]

ST

I really must ask what is your own first hand experience of the Air Corps? On what do you base you assertions that the Air Corps need to get their house in order? I have read in this and other threads how you like to critisize under utilisation of aircraft etc. Could you please inform us of the figures on which you base this. Just because an AIII turns up at Croagh Patrick instead of a shiny new helicopter doesnt say anything. SAR is no longer a primary tasking of the Air Corps. It is in fact a rather naieve view.Has it struck you that maybe there are no qualified winchmen/operators on the new helis yet? Things like pilot training and crew training for the PRIMARY taskings take precedent, especially while there are AIII qualified crew available. You can be damn sure that when the AIII finally go in September that there will be no gap in the back up service the Air Corps provide in the SAR role. Just by making the AIII available, the Air Corps ensured that the Coast Guard S-61 in Sligo was available for normal callouts.
PC-9's under utilised?? Says who?? They dont just train ab-initio pilots you know. Many aspects of MILITARY flying are practiced and honed on these aircraft. Without this, these skills would be lost and if we ever needed them who would teach us?? They maintain a basic minimum military standard. Cheaply and efficiently. The very reason they were purchased. If you can do it more cost effectively you're a bloody genius.
Have you visited Baldonnel in the past 4 years? Anyone who has will tell you great inroads that have and continue to be made into improving availibility and maximising flight hours. For example the flying day now starts earlier. And before you jump on that one, when the AW139's are sufficiently "worked up" , night training with the army will be high on the agenda. Back off a little there, give the boys a chance. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[SousaTeuszii]

Hi Taj,
I have no problem with the boys and girls in the Air Corps requiring time to get up and running but how long does it take.
You assert that the AIII provided for Croagh Patrick was a fully SAR winching capable machine with a crew trained as such. Somehow I doubt it. The fact that an old single engine helicopter was replaced (one of the major issues being safety of SE ops) and then remains on active duty says everything. It shouldnt be there end of!
Tell me, when were the EC135s delivered, what about the AB139s. Are you telling me that if the AIII had a fully trained SAR crew they could not do an aircraft conversion in that length of time? Perhaps somebody could confirm this but I suspect the aircraft left Bal with 1 pilot and 1 standard crewman to do medivac missions from predetermined LZs on Croagh Patrick. If so, in my opinion, it was negligent of the Air Corps to send it instead of a twin.

Aircraft underutilisation:

GIV and Learjet: These machines bearly do enough hours per year between them to be in the same category as a civil business jet. I can understand the requirement for one but not for two. Short range missions around Europe do not require the benefits estolled by the Irish callsign and could as easily be operated by corproate charter companies leaving just the GIV to be government operated.

SKA200: possibly the hardest working aircraft in the fleet. Due to its multitasking on training, service support and some VIP ops.

CASA: The Casa, a twin turbine airline class aircraft, provide maritime surviellance. These are long flight hour ,low cycle missions that should allow for huge hours each year yet they get about 800Hrs per year per airframe. With an average mission of 6 hours that means each aircraft only flys 133 missions a year. The total coverage is about 266 missions in a 365 day year!
As I have said before, this isnt rocket sicence, a civil canadian company provides over 5000hrs of maritime surviellance with 3 smaller aircraft. Thats 1 aircraft doing the total CASA fleets hours per year.
Its also not only in flight hours but as standby that they are underutilised. Since arrival in 1994(?) the CASAs have not spent one day on 24hr call. This with aircraft fitted out for SAR tasks both day or night, Why? And how often do the CASAs now carry flares and SAR packs on all flights?

PC9s: Eight PC9s were purchased with the intention of providing better, faster training then the SF260WEs, fair enough cant argue with that. However the aircraft are , I believe, on power by the hour schemes which the tax payer pay for wheather hours are flown or not. I believe that this figure was for around 600hrs per year per airframe, i.e. 4800 hrs per year. Considering that they have just passed 5000hrs I call that underutilisation OR we already have too many PC9s, take your pick.
On the contract front take 10 students per year and send them on an ab initio course to an airforce of your choice. At 5% the interest alone on the PC9s purchase price would provide €3.5 mil towards this training not to mention the lack of operational and service support costs. 8 standalone PC9s purchased, operated and all ancillary services included cheaper then to send 10 trainiees per year to a forgien course, I dont think so.

C172s: For old workhorses they do there job very well and consistant fly good hours each year, I just wonder at the percentage of these that are operationaly based but who cares as the junior pilots need to cut their teeth anyway.

Helis: I take your point on the 135s and 139s and will reserve judgement but the AIII saga paints a bad picture for me at least. I would say that this is the unit with a history of 24hr ops and it is likely to continue however relection on the past fleet have shown serious problems. The Dauphins were sold with about 5500hrs per airframe after 15 years of ops, thats a little over 300hrs per year. 5 airframes were required to provide 1 SAR base yet the ICG provide 4 bases with 5 (becoming 6) 1960s aircraft and fly about 700hrs per year per airframe. How come the ICG can do it but the AC couldnt. I hope it gets better with low maintenance machines but continuing to allow technician number to drop will just cause the same problem again.

Finally Taj, dont think I am getting at the men and women of the Air Corps here. I am purely pointing out problems that I see in the current system. Ones which I believe can only be sorted out from on high not with more money or more equipment.
ST

[SousaTeuszii]

Sorry, got that slightly wrong:

from 2006 DF report.

Casa MARPAT missions: 251
CASA Hrs flown:          1423

ST

[Taj]

ST,

An interesting post there with some good questions raised. Allow me to respond to some of the points you made. Firstly let me say that I do in fact agree with some of the points you made, I am however aware of some of the changes that are taking place and would be sensitive to the fact that people from the AC can and do visit this board and would be wary of making potentially morale sapping comments that take away from the good work that actually is being done. Baldonnel is a whole different place than it was only five years ago. Let me assure you of that, not least in the areas of productivity and discipline.Ask anyone who's tried to get out the gate before the end of duty hours.
Anyway to respond:
 
GIV and Lear45
Both highly specialised in tasking. What else would you have them do? The Lear is Air Amb capable but there are access issues for stretcher bound patients. You must understand that one of the primary reasons governmental/presidential transport is not farmed out to charter operators is security.   Lastly, the GIV/Lear combination is probably the most cost effective way of providing MATS at the moment. Certainely more cost effective than the ACJ/BBJ Bertie wanted.

SKA200
What you said.

CASA
Without doubt could and should have a higher usage. The embarassment of a large number of floating bales of cocaine on the Cork coast should go a long way to fixing this problem. Definitely a secondary role that will be given a higher priority in future.

PC-9
Farm out training to foreign air forces and lose the PC-9's?? Bad idea. The PC-9 actually do have a military as well as training role, albeit limited. Would this foreign air force provide us with the military capability the PC-9s have when we need it.We do actually use them in a military capacity from time to time. Would you like to see the basic military capability lost? No ability to perform even limited CAP for summits or visits of foreign leaders? Yes there is SPARE CAPICITY, I wouldnt term it under utilisation. This is not a civilian operator, and you must not look at it as such. In military terms, spare capacity is actually a good thing, especially if the security situation changes and also in terms of maximising airframe calender life.

C172's
Hour/Command experience builders. Need repalcement. But with what? As you said they do a job.

Helis
Reserving judgement is the best course of action. Let me assure you that lessons have been learned from the Dauphin mistakes and the AW139's are much less diverse in whats expected of them and therefore have the potential to excel in their intended roles. Revisit this subject in a year and you can be sure that we will have seen results.

Are there still some problems? Yes. Are efforts being made to solve them? Yes. Have some of the major problems been addressed? Most definitely. The wheels of change have been turning in Baldonnel for some time now.The mindframe has changed. Denying the Air Corps further funding for fleet improvment/limited expansion is a dangerous game. Would you prefer to see the Air Corps develop or reach a certain point and stagnate?

[FiannaFail]

Quote (SousaTeuszii @ 01 Aug. 2007,13:23)

In true Fianna Fail style you have refused to face the questions meated out in the afore mentioned threads. To deflect from your inability to do this you have started another thread in a disparaging and disrespectful manor, misquoting people and using inapproprite smileys. If you cant debate what has been put forward in a adult and sensible manner I suggest you return to your fund raising tent at Ballybrit. ST

ST,
For somebody that objected to me openning this thread can I say that it has produced some very interesting comments, including from yourself!  I personally think this is a very important  and interesting subject to review and yes people, including you, hold different views which is very interesting!

The role and function going into the future for the IAC will be important and I hope that it will be openly debated at all levels so that it becomes a major political issue which is the main way decisions are arrived at in democracies!

(And sorry that you find my use of smiliyies objectable.  I thought they were on the site to be used?)

FiannaFail

[SousaTeuszii]

FF,
I have no issue what so ever with you starting this thread, rather the manner in which it was done. You say that this is a "very important and interesting subject" yet you open it in a manner that suggests you are right and everybody else with a different opinion is a fool. Before you retort that you never said that, you didnt have too. Simelys exisit to allow some form of visual communication (80% of all communication is visual) and your inappropriate use of one disparaged everybody elses opinion.
If however this was not the intention and you started this thread to have a good debate then I welcome it.
ST

[SARMAN]

Good to see the old CG heli's getting a slagging off here, ironic me thinks.  The under-informed of the bunch. Have a look at Irelands SAR region and then tell me that the Irish Coast Guard need help from the RAF, if anything the majority of SAR flghts flown by some bases are helping the UK MCA.  As for the rest of the posts about the under use of the other aircraft I can only talk about one more that I have worked with, the CASA when available for top cover they are the best at there job, but it can be quite hard to get them out in the hours of darkness, the last 20 times I have requested top cover for a long range job 8 times it has been the RAF who provided it and the other 12 we have gone without..  (And before someone asks yes the question did reach Bal, the GDO) Its a sad state of affairs that two CASA's are sitting on the ground when long range SAR's where top cover is dearly needed can't be supplied...  

"when the AIII finally go in September that there will be no gap in the back up service the Air Corps provide in the SAR role."
What back up service???

 

[Taj]

The posession of winch equipped helicopters with an ability to operate in a SAR role in extreme circumstances, whether thats inland or otherwise is indeed a back up service. What else would you call it? Were the new helis delivered with winches for increased drag purposes because there is a surplus in Jet A??  Nice to see you bringing your bitterness to another board SARMAN. Even to the point of calling the users here underinformed??

[SARMAN]

Taj
Sorry if I offended you..
I really enjoyed my time in the AC I am not bitter, nothing to be bitter about, the aircorps gave me the best experience of my life..
I would not say it was bitterness I was bringing, just fact's!!  
 
I infact praised the CASA crews and there professionalism in my last post..  Such a good unit and if put on call 24/7 to provide top cover for SAR in the Irish SAR region it would be a major step forward, with the increase in the inavalabilty of other resources such as Nimrods and Herc's for top cover, it would be great if the CASA's could be used in this role..

As for my question on what back up service. I know the AC now have lovely new aircraft with hoists, who is No 3's tasking agency?  And in what circumstance would a back up to the current service be needed?  Major flood in D4 for example!!!

[Vulcan]

I think that the major air corps role should be for national defence.   That, in my opinion means being able to at least give some resistance against an attacker or terrorist threat from a highjacked aircraft if need be.  Although the PC-9's are great trainers, it would be like throwing stones at a howitzer if any threat did arise.  We are not immuned to threat while the likes of Al-Qaeda are around, who have the extreme belief that Islam is the only true faith and that all others should be wiped off the face of the planet.  They have shown that they are willing to attack any where no matter how big or small.

Also, it's a total shame that the CASA's can't be used for top cover operations to back-up the Coast Guard.  Seeing as most of the SAR operations that would need top cover happen off the west/south west coast, why can't one of them be based in Shannon for that purpose?

I have no knowledge of the workings of the Air Corps, so this is just my observations and thoughts.