Author Topic: RAF Gazelles  (Read 1390 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Imshi-Yallah

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 386
    • View Profile
RAF Gazelles
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2003, 08:22:20 pm »
CLan I can make a fairly good estimate based on troop numbers, equipment and policy statements.
For a start if you wanted to arm light helicopters new build twin Fennecs cost under E2m and come with a much longer operational life expectancy , broader utility and up to date avionics.
Also rocket and machine gun helicopters suffer from very high vulnerability when they get close in or face being relatively useless when firing from a safe distance (ask anyone who served in northern Iraq about CAS from Kiowas).
There is a case to be made for ATGM carrying light helicopters but again in order to exploit the latest technology in that fast moving field new build helicopters would be the realistic option.
I have myself advocated operating additional 20mm armed Gazelles in the past but on further investigation I found that the short term savings of buying secondhand LUHs would be minute, and all military light helicopters seem to have and option for a 20mm pod anyway.

Silver: The A109 and Dauphin don't carry nearly as much weight as it says on the tin, the 212 on the other hand is a certified lifter that can be relied upon to lift a fully bombed and bagged infantry section or sling load a 105.
Putting rockets on a 212 would be wasteful, it can generate far more fire support by supporting the operation of crew served ground weapons.

The last gulf war has proved beyond a doubt that helicopters are not well suited to CAS, that includes flying tanks like the AH-64, I doubt the A109 MA models would fare much better than the Kiowa Warrior.
‘The hottest place in hell is for those who are neutral’
Dante Alighieri

Offline clan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 336
    • View Profile
RAF Gazelles
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2003, 12:29:26 am »
They were indeed, 1million Euro each but they were single engined models. Imshi is right they do need to establish an Army support role. And then work around it for the other areas like SAR, NS pilots etc.
Who mentioned Jets

Fouga

  • Guest
RAF Gazelles
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2003, 01:58:40 pm »
Royal Navy Gazelles are also being advertised for sale in Today's Pilot Magazine...........

Offline n-e-foo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
RAF Gazelles
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2003, 09:26:53 pm »
http://www.rcaf.com/aircraft/database/griffon.htm

A Canadian AF variant of the civilian Bell 412, itself a variant of the 212. Viable in IAC service?

Offline John K

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 515
    • View Profile
    • MSN
RAF Gazelles
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2003, 11:25:39 am »
Hey Imshi, sorry for coming in a bit late on this one, but I have to agree with Clan on the 'restore' issue. Back in the early 80s' allouette 202 had a tail strike that cracked the tubular steel frame, well we got a new airframe from Aerospatiale and restored the aircraft to flying status, we didn't re-manufacture it! Mind you it was all to no avail 'cos one of the 'Ruperts' turned it over in a lake a couple of years later! saved his own skin but left the crewman to his own devices. I've got a clipping from the Belfast Telegraph with photo's that a workmate brought in to me, showing a wedding party with 202 coming in to land behind, then 202 upside down in the lake!.

Offline Bailer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bailerweb.com
RAF Gazelles
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2003, 02:46:58 pm »
I actually saw the Death of 202 on the News then John K. The Cameraman at the wedding caught it on VCR. The Pilot was trying to land it on the Lawn as it was losing power. but the Wedding party just stood and stared at him and eventually it went down in the Lake. The Best man and others were seen swimming towards the AIII to rescue the Pilot and Crewmen.

Was 202 ever recovered and if so is it still flying??
Coisithe, an t-Airm, Óglaigh na h-Éireann

--------------------------
http://www.bailerweb.com

Offline Imshi-Yallah

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 386
    • View Profile
RAF Gazelles
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2003, 11:43:39 am »
Replacing a tailboom is restoration, rebuilding and rewiring the airframe completely is remanufacture.
With all due respect to the IAC if they had that capability they could build their own helicopters, no military air force in the world maintains that level of capability.
Besides even if they could it would be years before the craft were operational again, thats a lot of manpower tied up in one marginal project.
‘The hottest place in hell is for those who are neutral’
Dante Alighieri

Offline FMolloy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 185
    • View Profile
    • http://www.cushtacsurplus.com
RAF Gazelles
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2003, 09:02:26 pm »
You also mentioned anti-tank operations in low-intensity conflicts.

The problem there is that once you stick weapons on a Gazelle people will start viewing it as a gunship & start using it as such. So either it get used in an offensive role & ends up a smoking hole in the ground or it doesn't get used offensively & ends up getting canned for being a waste of money.
D'oh!

Offline Imshi-Yallah

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 386
    • View Profile
RAF Gazelles
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2003, 09:46:12 am »
Its pretty hard to go charging in with Heli-Tow missiles, isnt the minimum range on these weapons pretty big?
Id understand your argument if it was about rockets or cannons, but the use of unprotected LUHs with long range ATWGMs is well established NATO doctrine.
‘The hottest place in hell is for those who are neutral’
Dante Alighieri

Offline clan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 336
    • View Profile
RAF Gazelles
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2003, 01:34:50 pm »
I see the RAF has released for sale 11 Gazelles, which will all be refurbished before they go on sale and the French are selling 2. Excellent looking aircraft especially with rocket launchers, they would be great as Army support units. They would be handy to have in Liberia with some ML's for troop support and troop evacuation.
Who mentioned Jets

Offline Silver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1315
    • View Profile
RAF Gazelles
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2003, 05:16:19 pm »
I agree clan.

I have always thought that if we had even 6 armed Gazelles they would be a great asset to the Defence Forces.

Offline clan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 336
    • View Profile
RAF Gazelles
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2003, 10:45:51 pm »
Could this be an Irish Dauphin as per the tricolour on the tail rotor. Picture taken at Eurocopter.
http://www.helispot.com/photos/03946.html
Who mentioned Jets

Offline Silver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1315
    • View Profile
RAF Gazelles
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2003, 10:51:06 pm »
Is that flag not blue white and red ?

Nice pic though.
Imagine if our SA365's were converted to that spec !





Offline Imshi-Yallah

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 386
    • View Profile
RAF Gazelles
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2003, 09:36:08 am »
What good are fire support craft if we dont have tactical airlift to enhance troop mobility?
Don't let gucci-ism blind you to realistic operating needs.
Also these aircraft were retired due to age and fatigue, one of the restored aircraft sold off 2 years ago has already suffered a fatigue related crash.




‘The hottest place in hell is for those who are neutral’
Dante Alighieri

Offline clan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 336
    • View Profile
RAF Gazelles
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2003, 01:40:04 pm »
It cannot have being restored very well if it suffered from fatique less then 2 years later. Maybe they should let the Air Corp techies restore them, if they can keep 30 year old aircraft still in the air surely they could do a job and on a few second hand Gazelles. My original message did say they would go well with some ML helicopters for airlift capabilities.
Sorry Sliver, it still comes up Green white and Orange on my PC. But maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me, it would not be the first time.
Who mentioned Jets