Last RAF air to air kill

[Taj]

If this is what the Argentine Govt claim they would have been screaming their heads off about this.EVERYONE would know. The fact that gun camera footge shows land refutes any claim otherwise. There is no reason that this "incident" is classified. If it were classified there would be NO gun camera footage.

It is not that people here believe everything Governments say. On the contrary, I will have to bluntly say that I dont believe the story as you are telling it and the fact that you have changed your story to shore up holes in it that I pointed out only cements that.

"the Argentine Govt claim the Skyhawk was outside the exculsion zone and heading home.His wingman escaped and this is what he claimed"

I see a lot of new stuff in those few words.

You may have seen some gun camera footage. You may have seen some form of service citation. You certainly do not have the correct version of events, if there were events. Sorry, but you cant keep changing the story to cover the holes in it.

As they say on Discovery Channel............MYTH BUSTED!

Happy New Year.

TM

[Baldonnel-boy]

"I cannont say why the incident is/was classified-it could be simply that the powers that be forgot to shut the case file,or feared more reprisiles because of the General Belgrano sinking."


1:It was the Argentine Government that claimed the aircraft was shot down outside the exclusion zone,so they DID make a fuss about it.


3:The internet is full of information-but it is important to remember that not all of it is accurate-people can easily set up sites and leave all sorts of info claiming it to be factual.
Therfore Offical records don`t always tell the whole story.

Afraid of reprisals    The Royal Navy sank a ship that was well proven to be no where near the exclusion zone with 323 sailors killed without worrying about reprisals and then because a SINGLE aircraft you say was shot down that MIGHT have been near the exclusion zone and heading home they were afraid of reprisals??                                                                                                                                                                                                              As you say the internet is full of information.....lots and lots of it... and lots of it is made up or not accurate but it is also full of roumors and speculation about things too .......and isnt it funny that nowhere does even a mention of a possible RAF air to air kill in the Falklands come up.....Well there is a possibilty that a GR3 hit a Puma that was full of troops during a air to ground rocket attack... but there is NO proof that it happened, But people still talk about it.... I think if a RAF harried did shoot down a Skyhawk there would be someone somewhere that would be mentioning it.... or someone who met or knew someone in the squadron involved....                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And as for the Argintine Goverment making a fuss....Where??? When?   I have gone through everwhere i can think of to find a mention of them even mentioning a shot down aircraft that they disputed.... and there are a good few.....but only in the way the british claim a few aricraft that they say were shot down by ships and the Argintines say they were lost to accidents......like.........Sea Dart Claims
1 - May 9 - HMS Coventry - A4-C - Lt Casco (KIA) - Disputed by Fuerza Aerea Agentina - Counter claim, lost in bad weather
2 - May 9 - HMS Coventry - A4-C - Lt Farias (KIA) - Disputed by Fuerza Aerea Agentina - Counter claim, lost in bad weather
3 - May 9 - HMS Coventry - Puma - Validated by Agentina
4 - May 25 - HMS Coventry - A4-B - Capt Palaver (KIA) - Validated by Fuerza Aerea Agentina
5 - May 25 - HMS Coventry - A4-C - Capt Garcia (KIA) - Disputed by Fuerza Aerea Agentina - Counter claim lost to Rapier
6 - May 30 - HMS Exeter - A4-C - Lt Vasquez (KIA) - Validated by Fuerza Aerea Agentina
7 - June 7 - HMS Exeter - Lear Jet - 5 Crew/Pax (KIA) - Validated by Fuerza Aerea Agentina
8 - 13 June- HMS Exeter - Canberra - Capt Pastran (POW) Capt Casado (KIA) - Validated by Fuerza Aerea Agentina
9 - Blue on Blue - 6 June - HMS Cardiff- Gazelle AH1 - 4 crew(KIA) - Validate by British investigation                 No mention of a possible RAF kill anywhere....      

[Tony Kearns]

This is a very interesting topic. I have never undertaken any research into the Malvinas war but my experience into my particular area of interest ie the air war around Ireland during the Emergency can be interesting and frustrating. I have spoken and corresponded with many veterans of the period British, German, US ,French, Poles and Czechs. The one lesson I have learned is that you have to question everything even though given in good faith, unfortunately I have wasted many hours of fruitless research on "Bum Stears"
The contributions are very interesting, but please do not let it get out of hand after all we are all friends here.
I never cease to be inspired by the bravery of the Argentinian Air Force weaving through the sound and who would have inflicted far more damage had the bombs worked. I am equally inspired by the bravery of the Sea King crew in their efforts to rescue personnel from the burning vessel and using downdraft to push the lifeboats away from the fire.
Tony K

[Paul McA]

Taj;  I have not added anything to shore up my story or try to patch holes in it-I am just repeating what I said in earlier posts.

You have said that I don`t have the correct version of events-how do you know? How can you say that?

The fact of the matter is the UK Government lists this event as Classified-they did not say why-they don`t do that sort of thing-its Classified and that`s an end to it.They are not going to say "Well it is Classified because........."

Because you can`t find any proof elsewhere on the net to prove it-that doesn`t mean it didn`t happen-service personnel that have signed the Offical Secrets Act are not going to issue information like this publicly.

This incident was told to me unoffically 15 years or so after it happened.

[Paul McA]

Baldonnel Boy-what is your point exactly?

I said that the UK Government didn`t want to get into anymore contriversal situations BECAUSE of the General Belgrano sinking-they didn`t want to add fuel to the fire-so to speak.

What is so  or  about that?

In my own opinion the Royal Navy were correct to sink the General Belgrano-no matter where it was.Don`t forget the UK was at war with Argentina so why should they have any restrictions on where or what they could attack.

[Baldonnel-boy]

Paul there are so many ways that your uncles friends story doesn't add up...... I'm not trying to make any point..... I'm just saying whatever way you look at it the story falls down......like......Britan and Argentina are at war.....the British sink the Belgrano with the loss of 323 sailors and the reprisals from Argentina are what? ..Apart from the air attacks on the British fleet that were a normal part of war i cant find any kind of act by the Argentine forces that would be classed as a reprisal.... ..   Then your Uncles friend supposedly shoots down a single aircraft with what you claim is gun camera footage that shows its over or near land which would prove it is well inside the exclusion zone......and the British are the afraid to admit they shot it down because it was supposedly flying away from the Falklands...... in that case was there a operational rule that all the aircraft that were flying away from the Falklands were not to be shot down?   I have never heard of that one either..... .......

"
1:It was the Argentine Government that claimed the aircraft was shot down outside the exclusion zone,so they DID make a fuss about it. 

  What Fuss did they make?   I remember the Falklands war pretty well as i followed it on the TV and in the press when it was on and i don't remember any fuss by them about any aircraft unfairly shot down.........Also i cant find mention of it anywhere...... As you say the British classified the incident secret did Argentina also classify it secret too???   finally.....

Because you can`t find any proof elsewhere on the net to prove it-that doesn`t mean it didn`t happen-service personnel that have signed the Offical Secrets Act are not going to issue information like this publicly.

    I don't think any of the Argentine Air Force...Army ..or Navy personnel that served during the conflict signed the Official Secrets Act..............

[Baldonnel-boy]

Just one more thing...... here's a list of all the Argentine Skyhawk losses during the Falkland Campaign....if one was lost in suspicious circumstances why is the no mention of it anywhere??                                                 Argentine Skyhawk Air Losses:

Argentine Air Force Skyhawk losses:
Grupo 4: 9 A-4C aircraft and 8 pilots

C-301: Capitan José Daniel Vazquez (KIA) 30 MAY 1982
C-303: Primer Teniente Jorge Ricardo Farias (KIA) 09 MAY 1982
C-304: Mayor Jorge Osvaldo Garcia (KIA) 25 MAY 1982
C-305: Primer Teniente Jorge Alberto Bono (KIA) 24 MAY 1982
C-309: Primer Teniente Néstor Edgardo Lopez (KIA) 21 MAY 1982
C-310: Capitan Omar Jesus Castillo (KIA) 30 MAy 1982
C-313: Primer Teniente Jorge Eduardo Casco (KIA) 09 May 1982
C-319: Teniente Lucero (Recovered) 25 MAY 1982
C-325: Capitan Daniel Fernando Manzotti (KIA) 21 MAY 1982
Grupo 5: 10 aircraft and 9 pilots

C-204: Capitan Danilo Rubén Bolzan (KIA) 08 JUN 1982
C-206: Primer Teniente Mario Victor Nivoli (KIA) 12 MAY 1982
C-208: Primer Teniente Jorge Rubén Ibarlucea (KIA) 12 MAY 1982
C-215: Teniente Velasco (Recovered) 27 MAY 1982
C-226: Primer Teniente Juan José Arraras (KIA) 08 JUN 1982
C-228: Teniente Alfredo Jorge Alberto Vazquez (KIA) 08 JUN 1982
C-242: Capitan Luciano Gudagnini (KIA> 23 MAY 1982
C-244: Mayor Hugo Angel Palaver (KIA) 25 MAY 1982
C-246: Capitan Manuel Oscar Bustos (KIA) 12 MAY 1982
C-248: Capitan Fausto Gavazzi (KIA> 12 MAY 1982

Argentine Navy Skyhawk losses:
Third Escuadrilla: 3 aircraft and 2 pilots

3-A-307 Capitan de Corbeta Philippi was recovered
3-A-312 Teniente de Navio Jose Cesar Arca was recovered
3-A-314 Teniente De Fragata Marquez KIA
                                                            See here for lots more info.........
                  http://www.skyhawk.org/2e/argentina/falklands-malvinas/argentina-malvinas.htm

[Gnat]

Should this not be in the Foreign Air Force section or does somebody know something that I don't
Gnat
(I sting)

[Paul McA]

Regarding the "Offical Secrets Act" I am of course referring to UK Military personnel not the Argentine Forces.

When I say Reprisals I mean Bad publicity.Maybe reprisals wasn`t the correct word.

I would have thought these two statements were obvious and have no hidden meaning.

Interestingly I discovered that the General Belgrano`s Captain,Cpt Bonzo (no joke) actually stated that the ship was a legitimate target but I would guess that was said sometime after the event.

As I have stated many times before I nor the pilot concerned know why this incident was/is offically classified.

The only thing he (the pilot)was told, that the matter was under investigation because the Argentine Govt had lodged a complaint stating the aircraft were outside the exclusion zone and on their way home.

I and the pilot concerned have no way of knowing if this is actually true, but that`s what he and his CO were told.

Regarding the camera footage-you are correct that it does show clearly land and sea in the footage which would rubbish the Argentine claims.

A copy of the footage was submitted to the MOD investigation but as I have said the pilot and his CO heard nothing further about it.

After doing some more research from books I have about the Falklands War I think I may have found a possible explanation for this incident-I will report back later.

[Paul McA]

You could well be correct that Argentina kept the incident as "Classified" and thats way there does not seem to be any info on it.
Like you I followed the events in the Falklands very closely-as a 15 year old this was very exciting to me,but you have to remember at the time there was very heavy censorship on reporting and the BBC to name one really made some serious blunders.

An example is below telling of how the BBC exposed the Argentine Forces bombs had failed to explode at low level because they had the wrong types of fuses fitted-they had been bought from the British!

"In his autobiographical account of the Falklands War,[56] Admiral Woodward blames the BBC World Service for these changes to the bombs. The World Service reported the lack of detonations after receiving a briefing on the matter from a Ministry of Defence official. He describes the BBC as being more concerned with being "fearless seekers after truth" than with the lives of British servicemen. Colonel H. Jones levelled similar accusations against the BBC after they disclosed the impending British attack on Goose Green by 2 Para. Jones had threatened to lead the prosecution of senior BBC officials for treason but was unable to do so since he was himself killed in action around Goose Green. Thirteen bombs[57] hit British ships without detonating. Lord Craig, the former Marshal of the Royal Air Force, is said to have remarked: "Six better fuses and we would have lost"[58] although Ardent and Antelope were both lost despite the failure of bombs to explode. The fuses were functioning correctly, and the bombs were simply released from too low an altitude.[59][56] The Argentines lost nearly twenty aircraft in the attacks."

What I think might have happened in the incident I described regarding the GR3 downing the A-4 Skyhawk is that the Royal Navy/MOD wanted any Air to Air kills credited to the Royal Navy.
So the air to air kill was offically released as a RN Kill and that`s why the involvement of a RAF Aircraft and Pilot was scrubbed or "Classified" from the records.

It`s pure speculation on my part but it has happened before in other recent conflicts ie

There was a case in Gulf War 1 that two RAF Tornado F.3`s were on a CAP patrol and were vectored to attack two enemy aircraft (Mirages I think)-just after being told to attack they were stood down by the US controllers and Saudi F-15`s engaged the enemy.
The RAF crew were none too impressed but it is thought it was done to show the Saudi`s "doing their bit"