Why, how and what jets the IAC should get.

[Tempest]

The economic argument: it's a recession, so we can't afford basic services.  There are recessions in many countries, but they do not ground their defences. 

On the other hand most countries pay for their own schools rather then relying on a religion to provide the infrastructure and management.

Is Ireland the only country in the world that replaces it's main 'combat' aircraft with one even less capable?  That has happened more then once.

It's a very dysfunctional country in many respects, even where it's military functions are of economic or social value (e.g fishery protection/drug interdiction) it fails to adequately resource the agencies responsible.  At the same time it spends millions on pseudo-military equipment (e.g AW139) which adds little value to anything.

It seems incapable of actually deciding what threats it faces, and how it should be manned, trained and equipped accordingly.  This is not new, it has always been thus.  When threat levels have been raised it has been shown to be hopelessly slow to respond. 

I'm not advocating anything, just pointing out the futility of threads such as this one.

[Frank]

While most of us would like to see jets on the ground at Baldonnel it's not going to happen and the simple reason is cost and public disquiet if the matter was raised.

If the media kicked up a stink in the good times over the proposed "Bertie Jet" they would throw everything out of the cot, including the baby, if we mentioned buying jets for the Air Corps. It doesn't matter a bit about the economics of buying them or their affordability, with so many people taking pay cuts and losing their jobs (including me unfortunately, I've been WFU), there would be a public outcry at the waste of taxpayers money.

I'd probably be the only person down the dole office happy about the purchase of jets!!!

The only thing, in my opinion anyway, that will change public opinion on us buying jets for the Air Corps is a kidnapped jetliner flying down O'Connell Street. And of course if that happened the Government would probably be lambasted for not having purchased jets sooner, it's a lose-lose situation.

The whole neutrality thing seems to be a big selling point with the electorate and that equates to us having no perceived enemies that we will need to fend off so unless something catastrophic happens we'll not be seeing jets any time soon.

Now if only the Government pursued a neutrality policy like Sweden or Switzerland...

[Tony Kearns]

with so many people taking pay cuts and losing their jobs (including me unfortunately, I've been WFU),

WFU but not W/O

Sorry to hear that Frank,hope sometihing turns up!
Regards
Tony K

[Frank]

with so many people taking pay cuts and losing their jobs (including me unfortunately, I've been WFU),

WFU but not W/O

Sorry to hear that Frank,hope sometihing turns up!
Regards
Tony K

Thanks Tony. One good thing about my particular redundancy is a month's paid leave before I can start a new job... my cameras will (hopefully) get a good work out in those few weeks.

[Stanly]

Frank.
Best of luck on the job search front and don't forget to keep up the day job!

Derek

[Silver]

Sorry to hear about that Frank. Not a nice situation for anybody to be in...I've been there before, many years ago. Best of luck with the job hunting!

----------

Now...back to the topic at hand...

While I would love to hear AC jets flying overhead again...it just aint going to happen in the forseeable future (maybe never?!) for all the reasons outlined in the previous posts here. (Unless ofcourse somebody gets a Fouga flying again for air displays and such?! hint hint;)


I have a proposal for different way to get jets flying over Ireland again ...though it would be a political 'hot potato' (and probably a non-runner for the near future)...

Anyway, this is what I suggest....
 
Co-operation between Ireland and the UK which would see AC pilots trained to fly RAF jets (with the training costs paid for by us) ...and in turn allowing the RAF to use our airspace (more freely) to train and patrol. If most people in this country saw RAF jets overhead ...and knew that they were probably piloted by AC pilots...they would most likely be accepting of that.

To my mind it would be a win-win situation for both countries.

- We would get our pilots trained to fly jets and would have our airspace regularly patrolled (and have the benefits of UK military radar cover ..perhaps by siting the necessary equipment at various points around the country to extend the current UK coverage?).

- The UK would have a larger training area, extra pilots available (i.e. AC trained pilots), extended radar coverage (if they havent already coverage over Ireland that is?) and their 'western flank' would be better protected.

At the end of the day Ireland-UK relations have improved drastically in the last decade and the AC and RAF often have exchange visits etc and so have already built up a good relationship .... heck we are even about to have the queen visit in the next year or so.

Such a proposal like mine above would be based on two mature countries sharing a common goal and not a return to UK 'domination' - as some small-minded people might think. (Plus I'm sure that such a set-up would do wonders for the relationship and trust of our Northern cousins ...the pro-union cousins that is;)

Anyway ...a wild and radical idea I know...but I just thought I would put it out there.
 

[davephelan]

An excellent idea about co-operating with the RAF . Unfortunatly, things over there are even worse than here . Having visited a few RAF stations over the last couple of years and got chatting to ground and air crew, the bewilderment and lack of moral are frightning over there . For example, personel who go to Afghanistan would seem to get a bonus of £3-4000 for a tour, whereas our lads who go to Chad or Kosovo , a much safer environment can earn up to €0-15,000 for a tour. Huge amounts of the RAF support services have been privatised and the end result has been very poor .
So, while i would love to see Aer Corp combat jets , like Frank, I have to agree , barring a 9/11 here or in the UK we will never see it
Dave
PS i did write to Pat Kenny a few years ago when he had interviewed Michael Smith, the then minister for defense, concerning our lack of a credible air denece or medium lift helicopter capability . It was the last time i heard a credible discussion in the media of our military aviation requirements

[CK]

I remember that debate. To bad they never ploughed money into the AC after 9/11.
Sorry to hear about your job Frank.

[corsair]

It's a very dysfunctional country in many respects, even where it's military functions are of economic or social value (e.g fishery protection/drug interdiction) it fails to adequately resource the agencies responsible.  At the same time it spends millions on pseudo-military equipment (e.g AW139) which adds little value to anything.

Completely agree. What's needed is a complete review of the Air Corps and what it's role should be. At the moment many of it's roles are effectively civilian in nature. It has a very limited military function. In many ways it's a shadow air force. Many of it's aircraft are indeed pseudo-military. The AW139s being the classic example.

It really needs to get back to it Army Air Corps roots. Get rid of the quasi air force blue uniforms and back into Khaki Drab.  Silver suggests cooperation with the RAF. A more logical idea would be to cooperate with the Army Air Corps.

None of this will happen with the current state of Irish politics and it's blundering amateurishness when it comes to defence issues and wider world affairs. The army is gradually reforming and modernising. Time for the Air Corps to follow.

[Tempest]

I would have thought that this was the perfect time for an Irish government to:

a) Demonstrate a willingness to offer something to the unemployment figures, which would also demonstrate;

b) A willingness to get back to the days when we were prepared to put a battalion and a half or even a bit more into UN operations.

by recruiting another 3,000-5,000 into the army.  It is only about 10 years ago that the military establishment was about 15,000 which this move would bring us back to.

There is no point in having a standing professional army which is overwhelmingly geared to infantry operations and then not letting that army get the professional experience that comes with UN ops.  Instead, this government can't wait to get 400 men out of Chad to save money, and look at cuts to other overseas deployments.  If they had their way, they would have soldiers in barracks in Ireland making tourist trinkets while on duty in order to justify their wages.

I've been a keen follower of the Defence forces since I almost signed up myself 25 years ago, but the reality is that the institutions of the Irish state have never credibly established the independent republic we would like.

Sorry, rant over!

[corsair]

but the reality is that the institutions of the Irish state have never credibly established the independent republic we would like.

Never was a truer statement made. We are still a very immature country and have never figured out what our actual role in the world should be. We have hidden behind the fig leaf of 'neutrality' for years as if it was an actual policy decision taken for wholly pragmatic and honourable reasons. Whereas in reality we couldn't join NATO when we tried to because the it would mean recognising a certain border which we now recognise anyway.

[Lootenant Pigeon]

Well thanks for the replies and sorry to hear about your job Frank, Im unemployed myself at the moment. There were some decent points made there but my arguments still stand. Lets take the reasons to have jets first.

1.The hijack scenario is very possible, so we should have jets and yes, I would have one or two permanently in the sky for this reason.

2. Civil War in the North. Very possible at ANY time. Theres a lot of unfinished business up here whether you like it or not and the " Peace Process " is a joke for reasons too numerous to mention. Dont let it fool you as I said. WHEN it kicks off next time, note that I say WHEN, not IF, you will all be dragged into it. No we wont be going up against the RAF as some dismissive poster said, because the RAF wont be here, or cant you see that ? They will have withdrawn. We need jets to support our ground troops who will have to go into the North to finish this once and for all. The British will have already done a back door deal to leave the North which will ignite said civil war. I believe, as do others that this is their ultimate plan. The British said quite some time ago that they have no " strategic " interest in staying in the North. In short we need jets in the event that this happens.

3. I did say an attack by a foreign power was unlikely didnt I ? So lets leave that one.

4. What wrong with PRIDE ? Why not have jets for that reason alone ? Why Not ?

Anyway moving on. The Recession argument we know all about and it doesnt cut ice with me. No money my ass. The Government are pumping BILLIONS into Banks, eg Anglo Irish. Also my plan envisages not actually spending ANY public money at all, so the Media, the man in the street and the Unions and uncle Tom Cobley and all ( and anyone on here who puts this argument forward ) dont and wont have a leg to stand on. In my next post I will tell you where the money comes from, but I will wait for a few more responses to this post first.

As for this £200 million Radar system, who says ? I dont buy it. We dont have one at the minute and the PC-9s and every civil airliner over Ireland is still flying safely. Why do we need a £200 million radar system ? Even if we do my plan could still raise that. So, over to you for a few responses. BTW its very insulting the number of people on here who have delighted in putting my idea down and called me a madman with these  kind  of smileys in every post.

You havnt even heard my proposal yet ! Typical Irish, defeatism. Get up off your knees, phsyically and mentally ! We can do this and we must do it.

A final Point to the bloke who said we couldnt intercept rogue airliners with the L159s. Rubbish. This plane can do 300 miles approx in 30 mins or 150 miles in 15 minutes. Scrambled from Baldonnel in the middle latitude of the country this means that almost no point in Ireland is more than 15 minutes away from Dublin. A Baldonnel based L159 could reach any plane within 75 miles of the Capital in 7 minutes approx or less. Another L159 stationed in the West at say Knock or Galway would have the same 7 minute or less response window for the West of the country. They fly at about 600 mph. Your average airliner is at 500 mph or less. There might be a minute or two of catch up time in a worst case scenario but we could stop any hijacked plane in minutes.

So there it is. Lets have a REAL Air Force for Ireland.

[bluefox]

Speaking as a Pilot (not in the Irish Air Corps btw) I absolutely concur with the poster who said that it is very difficult to spot other aircraft when airborne unless they are very close below about 10,000ft due to ''big sky'' theory.  At increasingly higher altitudes it becomes a little easier due to there being less atmospheric pollution, heaped cloud formations etc to degrade visibility and also aircraft tend to start giving off condensation trails at these altitudes and the higher strength of sunlight refecting from aircraft fuselages. This is all during the hours of daylight, night-time it's impossible with lights off.

Therefore it is vital to have a Primary radar system to vector aircraft for target intercepts. Here is a link to a poorly written article about the RAF scrambling to intercept targets that makes the point about the importance of Radar in these situations http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1263840/The-Kremlins-taunting-Britain-Blackjack-bombers.html?ITO=1490

Primary radar has been critical to air defence since the Battle of Britain in 1940!

As for Ireland not having a Primary radar system and civilian aircraft along with the miniscule number of military aircraft flying safely in Irish airspace - there are secondary-surveillance radars based at several civilian airports in the state. These work on the basis of said aircraft using a functioning transponder with applicable band-widths. Turn it off and the the radar controller may or may not be still able to observe you depending on your altitude, aircraft size, surrounding terrain, local weather etc. but more likely than not he or she will no longer be able to observe you any further.

As for using L159's for air defence purposes - they are not true interceptors being subsonic and you haven't factored in the time it takes for aircraft to climb to altitude and radar controllers to identify belligerent aircraft. Neither is it possible to just blow an aircraft out of the sky just like that killing hundreds of innocents even if it were possible for an L159 to intercept an Airline jet at speed which I highly doubt. There are internationally recognised intercept procedures which have to be implemented first to identify the nature of the situation first.

As for having two jets patrolling the sky permanently - kiss the entire Defence Budget goodbye and tell all the 10,000 personnel that they are not going to be getting their wages because of this. The USA is the most paranoid country in the world apart from perhaps Israel at the moment and even they don't have a situation such as this in place unless their is an actual terrorist alert.

And just so you know - the RAF have already withdrawn their presence from Northern Ireland.

Really OP, you do need to educate yourself more on such matters if you are going to comment on them as well as work on your current affairs knowledge too. I'm sure you mean well in your own mind but I sense a big lack of maturity and the ability to see the big picture here.

[Joe McDermott]

No Lt P, your arguments do not still stand ! 

[Lootenant Pigeon]

Bloody good reply Bluefox. Youve shot me down in some ways.   I did know the RAF are not in the North. Thanks for the points about the radar system. I do of course know about the importance of radar in the battle of Britain and ever since. But could we not get a less expensive system ( in these recessionary times - with defence contractors slugging it out ) for say £100 million ?

Next up, I freely admit I dont know all about military radar, I thought any radar could spot a moving target, transponders on or off, eg, the Germans didnt have transponders in 1940 did they ? Yet the Brits still spotted them.

As for the point about keeping a jet full time in the sky well I have to admit to ignorance on the cost. I know all about the paranoia of Israel and the USA and assumed it wouldn be a budget buster to keep a jet up there full time, maybe my assumption was wrong. Surely the RAF does this on a limited basis ? BTW, I did a dissertation on the Yom Kippur Arab - Israeli war at Uni, I will admit to being ignorant about the cost of full time jet patrols but dont tell me Im not up on my current affairs. Other than that, a very good and considered reply from someone who is a pilot. Cheers.

BTW, I only want whats good for Ireland folks.

Paul.