RTÉ Nationwide, IAC Vampires

[Shamrock145]

From about 12:30 in.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1076312

Some coverage of the UN veterans beforehand

...145

[Broc]

Great to see colour footage of the IAC Vampires, never seen it before! Nice that the lead aircraft is 191, breathes life into the museum piece for a relative youngfella like me!

[Irish251]

Nice piece, though the characterisation by the reporter of the Vampire trainer as a state-of-the-art jet fighter for the late 1950s was a bit wide of the mark!

[CK]

Was the fighter sqn the Light Strike sqn also? and did not disband as said in 1976 but when the Fougas were removed from service in 1998?

[bluefox]

No. 1 Fighter Squadron (which by the time the Vampires were in service was a fighter squadron in name only given that the Irish Vampires were the T55 training variant) was established in 1939 and was disbanded in 1980 with the restructuring of the Air Corps of that same year.

I suppose it had become very hard indeed by that time to even pay lip service to it even being a real fighter squadron now that it was using Fouga Magisters - the world's first purpose built jet trainer - so it was renamed  the more appropriate title of ''Light Strike Squadron''.

But again it should be remembered that both squadrons doubled as the advanced flight training school for roughly half of the year to teach the Wings and Instructor courses. In fact LSS had no full time flying staff from 1994 onwards.

So there are some discrepancies with Nationwides information but I suppose it wouldn't seem as exciting to the average viewer if they had just said that the Air Corps got some by then arguably obsolete Vampire trainer jets in 1956, designated to a fighter squadron in name only and over the course of their career actually did very little flying in the grand scheme of things due to their expensive fuel and maintenance costs.... The real facts just don't sound as exciting and they probably needed a hook for viewers to watch the segment.

It was nice to see the old flying footage of them though.

[Tempest]

No. 1 Fighter Squadron (which by the time the Vampires were in service was a fighter squadron in name only given that the Irish Vampires were the T55 training variant) was established in 1939 and was disbanded in 1980 with the restructuring of the Air Corps of that same year.

I suppose it had become very hard indeed by that time to even pay lip service to it even being a real fighter squadron now that it was using Fouga Magisters - the world's first purpose built jet trainer - so it was renamed  the more appropriate title of ''Light Strike Squadron''.

But again it should be remembered that both squadrons doubled as the advanced flight training school for roughly half of the year to teach the Wings and Instructor courses. In fact LSS had no full time flying staff from 1994 onwards.

So there are some discrepancies with Nationwides information but I suppose it wouldn't seem as exciting to the average viewer if they had just said that the Air Corps got some by then arguably obsolete Vampire trainer jets in 1956, designated to a fighter squadron in name only and over the course of their career actually did very little flying in the grand scheme of things due to their expensive fuel and maintenance costs.... The real facts just don't sound as exciting and they probably needed a hook for viewers to watch the segment.

It was nice to see the old flying footage of them though.

Bluefox, you are a little naive on the facts yourself!  The Vampire T11 (or T55 as the export versions were designated), came out of the 1949 development of a dedicated twin seat night fighter version of the Vampire (designated DH 113 NF Mk. 10), and was the RAF's first jet night-fighter in 1951.  DeHavilland only then saw the potential for a two seat trainer version, with some examples coming into service in 1952.  It was only in 1956 that the Vampire became the standard jet trainer in the RAF - the same year that the Air Corps acquired their first examples.  So hardly obsolete in 1956. 

The main operational deficiency in the trainer version was the removal of the nose-mounted radar, and reduced fixed weapon capacity.  Otherwise it had the same capability as other Vampires, and therefore the designation 'Fighter Squadron' was not really a huge misnomer.  It just had a much shorter front-line use in other air arms.

[bluefox]

Naive, not really - just informed. Given that the De Havilland Vampire was a subsonic aircraft and originally designed for service in World War 2 which had ended before it eventually went into mass production I don't think I'm at all wrong by saying that it was obsolete as a fighter aircraft in 1956. In fact if you read old issues of the Irish times etc from the mid 1950's even they criticize the Department of Defence at the time for selecting an obsolete fighter design.
 
By 1956 far more technologically advanced fighter aircraft had superseded the 1940's vintage Vampire such as the North American F-86 Sabre and F-100 Super Sabre which had been already introduced to service in both the USA and other NATO member states, the Hawker Hunter in the UK with the English Electric Lightning to be coming online a couple of years later,  the Mig-19 in the USSR, along with the Dassault Mystere series in France and the soon to be online super mystere etc etc.

RAF Fighter aircraft from the 1940's and 1950's that were found no longer deemed suitable for day time fighter operations(because their performance had since been superseded by enemy designs) usually ended up as night fighters where manouverability and performance was not as major an issue hence large numbers of Vampires in RAF service ended up as ''night-fighters'' as well being used as ground attack aircraft(in lower intensity conflict areas where the threat of much more capable enemy fighters wasn't really a factor).

As far as the RAF using the Vampire T11 trainers the arrangement did not last all that long as they were replaced in the early 1960's by the supersonic Folland Gnat.

Any way one looks at it it simply cannot be justified that the De Havilland Vampire T55 was a state of the art fighter aircraft in 1956 I'm sorry to say!

And having talked to two former Air Corps Pilots who actually flew them in the 1960's they were largely hangar queens compared to the rest of the fleet at the time due to the expense of the engine replacement, maintenance and cost of operation. One of the two had to complete his Wings course on the Piston Provost after only flying about 10 hours on the Vampire as all the Vampires then went for maintenance and it turned out that they didn't have the budget to get them up and running for the forseeable future at the time....

[Tempest]

Sorry Bluefox, I wasn't trying to suggest the Vampire was a credible fighter by 1956, as you point out it was well exceeded by other aircraft in that role.  I was only suggesting that it was a credible jet trainer which happened to be based on an older fighter design, performing this role at the same time as selected by the RAF in the same role.  Obviously there was artistic licence in assigning 'Fighter Squadron' to the T55's.

[Irish251]

As far as the RAF using the Vampire T11 trainers the arrangement did not last all that long as they were replaced in the early 1960's by the supersonic Folland Gnat.

Well summed up on the Vampire.  Just a minor point of correction: the Gnat was a subsonic aircraft, though it may have been able to exceed Mach 1 in a dive.  The RAF also used Hawker Hunter T.7s as advanced trainers, especially as the Gnat was really too cramped for taller pilots.

[CK]

Thanks bluefox for answering my question.

[bluefox]

Sorry Bluefox, I wasn't trying to suggest the Vampire was a credible fighter by 1956, as you point out it was well exceeded by other aircraft in that role.  I was only suggesting that it was a credible jet trainer which happened to be based on an older fighter design, performing this role at the same time as selected by the RAF in the same role.  Obviously there was artistic licence in assigning 'Fighter Squadron' to the T55's.

Don't worry, I didn't take any offence

And thanks to ''Short Finals'' for the correction regarding the Folland Gnat, I also did not know that the twin seat Hawker Hunter was used for advanced training of taller students in the RAF... interesting information, you learn something new every day.
I'm sure most of you already have it by now but I bought a copy of this months ''Flying in Ireland'' magazine today and there was a good article on the Vampire reunion which also had good interesting information regarding their Air Corps service.

Best Wishes

[Tony Kearns]

Very interesting input there. I would suggest that with the demise of the Seafires the Fighter Squadron as such was effectivly non functional and the Spitfires and the Vampires should have been allotted to the Schools permanently. I believe that during the period of operational use of the Seafires and Hurricanes it   was only then that it was  really a valid fighter squadron, even taking into account that it was designated as such in 1939.
Tony K

[Lootenant Pigeon]

Great footage allright. Moving away from the Vampire, you may or may not know that Israeli Fouga Magisters actually shot down a few Arab Mig 21s in the 1967 Arab - Israeli war, something that strictly speaking they shouldnt have been capable of doing in a dog fight situation.

[bluefox]

That's not entirely true. One Israeli Fouga was credited for an Egyptian Mig-21 CFIT (Controlled Flight Into Terrain) which had been pursuing it at low level in some valleys during the 1967 six day war. That Israeli Pilot was a very lucky guy! The Fouga is like a vintage mini cooper to a Mig-21's Ferrari.