Author Topic: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane  (Read 8848 times)

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Offline Frank

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Re: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2010, 09:42:10 pm »
Gnat,

I agree with you as well, I'm just saying that different people want different things, I don't even know what's wrong with the bloody kit in the first place.

With regards to the photography analogy... I've spent a fair bit of cash on both my equipment (Canon SLR gear) and travelling, I'm chasing down the "perfect photo" (which I think I took in June this year but I digress) while other people are just happy with a photo.

When I was doing the air to air in May from the back of a Skyvan every person on board had a camera, fair enough, most people had 2 SLR's strapped to them apart from one guy who had a point & shoot and he was happy out, they may have been crap but he didn't care.

IrishAirPics.com - Your source for thousands of Irish Aviation photographs
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Offline Gnat

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Re: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2010, 08:48:49 pm »
Right gentlemen, I have just remembered, why I don’t contribute to often to this wonderful web site….The never ending  sager of the ‘New Airfix Hurricane’ just as a matter of interest could someone just pin point the exact problem in detail with this kit, then we can all move on! and try and keep things a bit fresher, I think it’s gone on long enough now! :duh:

Ascot,
If this thread is causing you some distrerss, ::)  try the mouse and go to another thread. In the meantime perhaps someone will come up with the answer to the problem. ;D
Gnat
I sting

Offline Red_Square

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Re: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2011, 11:07:39 pm »
Ok, so the Airfix research might have been a bit lazy but here's my two cents; (que music, phil coulter or similar)

As someone who was involved in the "lazy" research that went into the IAC scheme for the kit, I'd be interested to know just what the supposed problems are given that both Joe Maxwell - an acknowledged authority on IAC schemes - and some of the IPMS Ireland guys, were involved at every stage and signed off on the scheme being accurate after some considerable work. In fact Joe produced some hitherto unpublished photos that shed tremendous light on the variations between the various Hurricane's in the famous line-up pic, as well as giving clear details of 105 camouflage pattern.

There has been some disagreement over the colours of 105 in that line up, the overriding consensus was that the scheme was OG/DG/MSG.

If anyone knows different, please share!
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 11:17:53 pm by Red_Square »

Offline Tony Kearns

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Re: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2011, 10:03:25 pm »
Frank, keep your head down on this one  :rotfl:

Lazy research is the word that I would use ( without the inverted commas) and I would be interested in the composition of the "consensus" If IPMS was involved why did they pass on my name to the person in the UK who contacted me in Jan/Feb 2010 by e mail. As a result I consulted my files and did send details of the camouflage and markings and some scanned pics, time consuming I might add. Now what really pi**es me off is that I never heard a word back to even acknowledge the information.The new found unpublished photos mentioned perhaps were not sufficiently examined and interpreted otherwise the camouflage on the port side would not have been shown thus and the upper wing markings corrected and so on.
Each Hurricane has to be researched as a unit, no Hurricane was finished the same, now that is what I have been doing for the last 30 years.
By the way I have to agree with most of what Gnat says even though he stings. ;D
Regards
Tony K

Offline Red_Square

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Re: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2011, 10:38:57 pm »
Frank, keep your head down on this one  :rotfl:

Lazy research is the word that I would use ( without the inverted commas) and I would be interested in the composition of the "consensus" If IPMS was involved why did they pass on my name to the person in the UK who contacted me in Jan/Feb 2010 by e mail. As a result I consulted my files and did send details of the camouflage and markings and some scanned pics, time consuming I might add. Now what really pi**es me off is that I never heard a word back to even acknowledge the information.The new found unpublished photos mentioned perhaps were not sufficiently examined and interpreted otherwise the camouflage on the port side would not have been shown thus and the upper wing markings corrected and so on.
Each Hurricane has to be researched as a unit, no Hurricane was finished the same, now that is what I have been doing for the last 30 years.

Regards
Tony K

First up Tony, that was me - a total of four emails from the Feb 7th to Feb 14 during which you only ever sent one image and that was a colour port side view by Richard Caruana which you declared "nearest to a correct depiction of a Hurricane", of which the kit camouflage pattern also concurs (based on the standard RAF pattern). If you did send any more images or information, they never arrived, and despite replying I never heard any more from you so assumed you were unable to assist further.

As it is Joe and some guys from IPMS Ireland stepped in with a pile of info and observations which were then used to build a picture of 105 and work out the various details of the scheme. I discussed with Joe the various interpretations of 105s camo colours and the consensus was that 105 was in DG/OG/MSG.

I'm slightly puzzled why you feel the port side pattern is wrong when it concurs with a reference source you acknowledged as being accurate. As for the upper wing markings, please share - is there something both myself, Joe and others have missed here?

No slight was ever meant Tony, by no means do I doubt the time you have spent researching this subject matter over the years - equally I don't doubt the work Joe has done either, and for whatever reasons why our correspondence didn't bear fruit, Joe was able to supply the information in the time required.

By all means disagree with the results of that research but to call it "lazy", when in fact the efforts and lengths taken were actually quite considerable, is perhaps a touch disingenuous.

Offline Tony Kearns

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Re: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2011, 12:07:16 am »
Evening Jonathan,
I sent an email 12 March with six attachments, 3 were sketches (showing patterns and dimensions) and 3 pictures they did not bounce back to me so someone got them or else they are out there in cyberspace.
Richard's Hurricane profile was sent as an initial input. I really dont know which pictures were consulted but they would have had to be of H105 otherwise there would be differences. Air Ministry standards did not necessarily apply to Air Corps patterns or paint colour ( in the case of wartime colours).
Regards
Tony K


Offline Red_Square

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Re: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2011, 07:59:50 am »
No emails of that type were ever received Tony, nor indeed did you reference to them in your subsequent emails of 14th and 17th February - you did mention problems sending emails on Feb 8th that kept bouncing.

I'm slightly bemused that you seem unsure about what pictures were consulted because you were emailed a photo on Feb 7th of H105 from the famous line up pic. Also the completed (and numbered) layout and decal sheet was emailed on Feb 17th at 20:01 GMT with a view to your feedback, but no more correspondence was ever recieved. I'm still slightly bemused over this port side camouflage issue because you said in you Feb 8th email, quote

Quote
I am attaching a picture of H103 which is the artwork of Richard Caruana who completed it from details which I discussed with him some years ago. It is about the nearest to a correct depiction of an Irish Hurricane, not quite but almost. The colour scheme shown would be late 1943. This may be of assistance.

A case of "may be of assistance" but which now may or may not have been absolutely reliable?

As I said, there was nothing "lazy" about the research. Expert opinion was sought and every aspect was carefully weighed based on the evidence to hand, revised and discussed. If there was something we missed - not through a lack of trying or wanting to try - then please do share as it would help in trying to clarify the differences between yours and Joe's conclusions on the scheme.

Many thanks.

Offline Tony Kearns

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Re: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2011, 08:44:24 pm »


No emails of that type were ever received Tony, nor indeed did you reference to them in your subsequent emails of 14th and 17th February - you did mention problems sending emails on Feb 8th that kept bouncing.

Quote
I am attaching a picture of H103 which is the artwork of Richard Caruana who completed it from details which I discussed with him some years ago. It is about the nearest to a correct depiction of an Irish Hurricane, not quite but almost. The colour scheme shown would be late 1943. This may be of assistance.

A case of "may be of assistance" but which now may or may not have been absolutely reliabl.

                                  -----------------------------------------------------------
Jonathan, how could I "reference to them" when the email and attachments were sent in March?
The profile of H103 was merely sent to you as a gesture thinking that it may be of assistance and also it was close to hand when replying to you at the time pending assembling of the information required on H105. I am aware of the line up picture of the Hurricanes of the Schools and Fighter squadron as part of the set taken that day.I was ( and note your slight bemusement) wondering just what other pictures were consulted and were they of H105? As I said Air Ministry standards did not necessarily apply to Air Corps patterns or paint colour.Pity about the e mail and computer problems
Regards
Tony K

Offline Red_Square

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Re: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2011, 09:05:38 pm »
Well Tony, you presented something as being representative and given your expertise on the subject matter it was taken on trust as a starting point - if you have since changed your mind as to its authenticity that's your prerogative - hindsight is a wonderful thing.

It seems to be coming down to a difference in interpretation between yourself and Joe, rather than "lazy" research. I've outlined how the scheme was arrived at, disagree with conclusion by all means, the $64,000 question would be do you have better, clearer port side image of H105 showing the camo pattern different to how we interpreted it? If so we can resolve this once and for all. Similarly, you alluded to a problem with the upper wing markings but have not elaborated any further.

As I said, no slight was ever meant. We had an exchange of emails in which much was alluded to but very little actually surfaced, and then it all went quiet. Artwork was sent to you for your input, nothing ever happened. If we boobed, hands held up, its a fair cop - but it would help fill in the blanks to actually see where you feel we went wrong.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 09:10:15 pm by Red_Square »

Offline Gnat

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Re: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2011, 10:56:01 am »
 
 I am aware of the line up picture of the Hurricanes of the Schools and Fighter squadron as part of the set taken that day.
Regards
Tony K
[/quote]

Hey Tony K
I have always seen that photo of the line up described as being of No1 Fighter Squadron in a number of publications,.... schools?? do you know different? I know I sting as you say but I just want answers, OK
Gnat
(I sting)

Offline Tony Kearns

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Re: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2011, 11:25:12 pm »
Gnat, I presume that you mean this picture.
Two of the Hurricanes in that line up were on charge to the Schools and not the Fighter Squadron.
The first Hurricane in the picture No 110 was on charge to the Schools for it entire Air Corps service.
Tony K

Offline Gnat

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Re: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2011, 02:12:22 pm »
Gnat, I presume that you mean this picture.
Two of the Hurricanes in that line up were on charge to the Schools and not the Fighter Squadron.
The first Hurricane in the picture No 110 was on charge to the Schools for it entire Air Corps service.
Tony K

Thanks Tony K,  That is the picture. You say that it never was with the fighter squadron, only with the schools yet in my copy of Mason's book on the Hurricane I can make out the panther head logo on the nose just like Hurricane 105. Looks like you got it wrong?? A few years ago I built a model of Hurricane 110 and entered it as Number 1 F.Squadron. Now you say that is not right.
Gnat
(I sting)

Offline Red_Square

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Re: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2011, 02:28:17 pm »
There are clearer pics where 110 would appear to have the No.1 Fighter Squadron badge painted out, which may have been as a consequence of its change of provenance?

Offline Tony Kearns

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Re: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2011, 09:00:51 pm »
Well noted Gnat, I cannot explain why the F.Sqn. badge was applied.There is no reference to it in the "work carried out" section of the log but possibly when 110 was being resprayed and the markings and serial being applied in the MU following delivery.Sorry about your model in the competition maybe the judges did not know otherwise.
Regards
Tony K
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 10:52:36 am by Frank »

Offline Gnat

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Re: New Airfix 1/72 Air Corps Hurricane
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2011, 12:04:31 am »
Cheers Tony K very interesting.
Jeeze we can never catch you out :biggrin:
Dont know why Red Square bumped up this thread, but glad he did.
Gnat
( I sting)