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Offline Silver

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No more SAR -
« on: December 29, 2003, 06:28:45 pm »
Switzerland and Sweden's air forces provide AA helis.

I fully accept what you are saying, sealion.
However, if the AC don't get properely equipped for military-only roles, HEMS may be a good way of gaining public support for better equipment.    

(Bear in mind that I'm being a 'devils advocate' i.e. generating debate on this topic. It's 'food for thought').

Offline clan

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« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2003, 09:03:44 pm »
Sealion is correct, Hems is a civilian job and with the desbandment of the regional health boards it might be closer then we might think. Frank has a picture of the Kent Air Ambulance that visted Mayo a year or two ago. I think we will see HEMS in the West in the next year or two. The helicopter will be bought through part fund raising Part Goverment.
Who mentioned Jets

Offline FMolloy

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« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2004, 05:12:25 pm »
SOS call for Air Corps search and rescue

        
        
  The privatisation of air search and rescue is unnecessary and wasteful, writes Lorna Siggins, Marine Correspondent

Forty years ago this Christmas, a distress message was picked up from a French fishing vessel off the Connemara coast. The Emerance had lost engine power, was drifting towards rocks, and the crew of 16 were taking to the liferafts. Weather conditions were deteriorating when Comdt Barney McMahon, Lieut Fergus O'Connor and Sgt Peter Sheeran took off from Casement Aerodrome at Baldonnel, west Dublin, and flew 160 miles to the rescue.

Their aircraft, an Alouette helicopter, had only been delivered several weeks before from France, and this was the crew's first official search and rescue mission. Until then, the State had been totally dependent for air rescue on the British military. The new helicopter had no liferaft, the most basic of safety gear, and an "atrocious radio". The pilot was still trying to find the fishing vessel, or liferafts, when he ran low on fuel.

The helicopter was over north Connemara when Comdt McMahon spotted a possible landing "pad" - a handball alley, just outside Clifden. He touched down, rustled up the owner of a local garage, contacted the local priest for the essential paraffin mix, and procured a set of nylons from the garage owner's wife to use as a filter. The crew were airborne again and en route to the Aran islands when they were told that the liferafts had been located by several other fishing vessels, and the 16 Frenchmen were safe and well.

Forty years and thousands of rescue missions later, members of the Air Corps search and rescue detachment from number 3 Operations Wing have just spent their final Christmas on duty on the west coast. An island medical evacuation was one of the last missions carried out in a highly-equipped medium-lift Sikorsky helicopter, based at Sligo Airport. In several weeks' time, the Irish Air Corps logo painted on the Sikorsky will be removed, as private operator CHC Helicopters takes over the base and the Air Corps is officially stood down from search and rescue altogether.

If the 10 pilots who moved to Sligo are in a state of shock over the decision, so are senior Irish Coast Guard officials who are ultimately responsible for State search and rescue. The announcement by the Minister for Defence, Mr Smith, late last month represents the final blow to the defence wing, which experienced its worst accident in July, 1999, when four Dauphin helicopter crew died in Tramore, Co Waterford, on their return from a rescue mission.

A promise made then by the Minister for Defence to replace the helicopter fleet was not delivered upon. Last year, the Minister cancelled the contract for five medium-lift helicopters, ostensibly due to "cutbacks", but in reality due to the legal challenge mounted by an unsuccessful bidder when the contract became embroiled in politics.

The "compromise" for the Air Corps was a commitment to lease a medium-lift helicopter, until such time as a new contract was put out to tender. Over €11 million has been spent on the establishment of this new medium-lift base at Sligo Airport, and the target was to provide 24-hour cover from this autumn.

A pay claim submitted by winching crews through their union, PDFORRA, scuppered these plans, however. A wrangle over pay and safety issues deteriorated into a personality clash, winching staff went "sick", and the military then took the decision to redeploy them to non-flying duties back at Baldonnel - effectively restricting the Sikorsky to limited cover.

Speaking on RTÉ Radio One news last month, the Minister justified his move to pull the Air Corps out of search and rescue altogether by referring to a "variety" of problems, including "blue flu". Fishermen's lives needed to be protected off the north-west, and the Air Corps could not guarantee this, he said.

However, fishing industry organisations have reacted angrily to this argument, stating that the Air Corps has provided invaluable cover to the fishing industry over the years. The Air Corps and Irish Coast Guard management had expected an interim arrangement might have to be provided until the industrial relations issues were sorted - or new winch crews trained. The Coast Guard had always made it clear that it did not want to be totally dependent on one private operator.

This total dependence has now come to pass, and the Minister's privatisation move - just a week before he took delivery of the new Government jet and boasted of Ireland's "€40 billion economy" - will have long-term consequences, and not just for search and rescue. It was the plight of upland farmers, rather than fishermen, which had precipitated State purchase of two Alouette helicopters, after the heavy snowfall of late 1962 and early 1963. Weather relief, services to offshore islands and medical evacuations in very difficult conditions have comprised some of the less publicised missions carried out by the Air Corps over the past four decades

Communities on Tory island in Co Donegal, which has no runway, Mayo's Clare Island, Inishturk and Inishbiggle, and Inishbofin, Co Galway, may all be affected by the reliance on one civilian operator. Whereas private helicopters are bound by civilian air regulations, Air Corps helicopters have been able to land in handball alleys, fields and in hospital car-parks in extreme circumstances. Health boards may also be hit with additional bills, as air ambulance flights - hitherto carried out at no charge by the Air Corps - may now have to be paid for.

But then the Department of Defence has had 40 years' practice of attempting to pass the buck. Barely a year after the Alouette helicopter purchase in the early 1960s, the same Department refused to finance provision of a suitable training launch for the helicopter crews in the Dublin area.

The Air Corps crew had to fly to the naval base at Haulbowline, Co Cork, to borrow a launch supplied by the then Commanding Officer. The cost of one helicopter flight to and from Cork would probably have paid for a year's lease on an east coast training boat. Lives may not be lost as a result of this decision, because the Irish Coast Guard is committed to maintaining a coastwide rescue service. However, with one callous and thoughtless stroke of a pen, the Government has thrown away years of experience and commitment, turned its back on those Air Corps families who opted to move to the north-west, and placed one private operator in an omnipotent position.




© The Irish Times
D'oh!

Offline Guinness

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No more SAR -
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2003, 09:10:12 pm »
Can somebody tell me what "Hems" stands for??

Guinness
Guinness is good for you

Offline alpha foxtrot 07

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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2004, 01:55:11 am »
thank you fmolloy
well the person who wrote that hit the nail on the head 'one contractor' who can pull out any time can go bankrupt any time can increase the price anytime, plus the aer corps pilots loss the skills because now there is no money for sar training.
you're not lost until you're lost at mach 3

Offline Joey d

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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2003, 09:51:36 pm »
Helicopter Emergency Medical Service

Offline p.diddy.cool

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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2004, 04:24:18 pm »
hi everyone,

once again the whole issue of why the issues got so bad in SAR that people went sick with stress, being put under pressure to fly with equipment that in some cases had not been serviced in over 12 months!...

And yes i would agree that it did for some ppl get personal, i am not going to say this again SO Listen!... THE PAY CLAIM PUT IN BY SAR CREWS O/RANKS WAS IN THE WORKINGS FOR OVER TWO YEARS BEFORE THE EQUIPMENT ARGUEMENT STARTED! AND TO ENSURE THAT THE ISSUE OF MONEY WAS NOT USED AS A EXCUSE BY ANYONE IN MANAGMENT OR OTHERWISE THE PAY CLAIM WAS WITHDRAWN FROM THE C&A TABLE against the advice of PDFORRA! SO THAT THE EQUIPMENT ISSUE COULD BE ADDRESSED, BUT PPL STILL USED THE FAILED MONEY ISSUES AS REASONS FOR THE SICKNESS.... THIS WAS NOT THE CASE! EVEN ON THE MORNING OF THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF SAR DISBANDMENT FROM THE IAC THE SAR CREW AND PDFORRA HAD A MEETING TO TRY AN AVOID IT... BUT IT WAS TOO LATE. And even that morning management still wouldnt talk, and its a shame to say it but if they had sat down at the start and just talked about the equipment problems and the CRM.. OR lack off! the IAC would still have SAR.

Oh and for the record while some ppl in the Don are laughing at the pilots for moving to sligo and getting S**t on by SAR ending, im not one of them! they're famillys are now suffering because of it!

Shame on us! '<img'>





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« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2003, 10:27:34 pm »
The UH 60 is a little large for HEMS and too bloody expensive to operate just for one casualty on the odd occasion. Even the Brit AA services are having trouble funding their providers. Saw on Sky news that the NW heli (A BO105) takes 60 thou sterling a month to operate and they are running out of cash. That aircraft gets a call up to four times a day. Five helis is the minimum you need to provide AA to this country, Cork, Galway, Athlone, Dublin and Donegal. The IAC is unlikely to commit to that level of service. You have to do it properly or not at all. The golden hour is the principle by which AA is driven. With aircraft based even 40 mins away you are eating into this golden hour. Notwithstanding that most of the hospitals in this country panic whenever you mention helicopter pads and scream 'what about our insurance?'. I know of only two hospitals in this country that have actually done something to improve their heli pad in the last eight years. Most of the others have demolished or built on theirs and even the few that have carried out building improvements never even considered a pad as part of the development. I was asked some years ago to recommend a new location for a pad at Cork Uni Hosp (with an engineer to consult) and the management refused my suggestion because it had been earmarked for a building already. When I suggested the roof, they said that the designs were complete and couldn't be altered. I believe that they are now designing a pad into the roof of their latest building. Beaumount hospital in Dublin has no pad because the area designated with the assistance of the IAC was turned into a consultant's car park. St Vincent's knocked the nursing accom block right on top of their pad and have never replaced it. Tallaght built theirs on the opposite side of the hospital to the A and E, requiring an ambulance to be present to transfer the patient, totally negating the usefulness of the helicopter. Crumlin have closed their pad for approx two years for buliding works, requiring all transfers to happen in Baldonnel, again negating the use of a heli. There is no pad in Blanchardstown, the Mater, St James, the Coombe etc etc. That shows the level of desire for an Air Ambulance service in this country. The IAC has traditionally operated to pads that are completely inadequate but have had to close a number of hospital options on instruction from the hospitals themselves due to insurance considerations. Tullamore is an example. The only people I can see actively pursuing this are the NWHB especially Mayo General Hosp.

Offline alpha foxtrot 07

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No more SAR -
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2004, 05:13:37 pm »
well said
you're not lost until you're lost at mach 3

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No more SAR -
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2003, 10:32:17 pm »
Oh, and if things work out in the new year, eyes on the sky in North Co Dublin. A little bird told me that the Dublin Fire Brigade had opened up an avenue of communication with the IAC in respect to a local HEMS arrangement. More to follow.

Offline BoB

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« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2004, 03:04:13 pm »
Hello Peeps....

Guess we're going to disagree on that article then!
Ho-Hum...nothing new there then!
I accept that times have changed in 40 years....but operating single engine over the water, without liferafts, running out of fuel, mixing your own, atrocious radio, basic equipment!!?? Staggering acheivements....scarey too! That this was published in a National paper with pride disturbs me! I don't know how anyone can be proud of running out of fuel.
So...are we surprised that the AC lost Sligo? If you were surprised you need to get your head out of the sand! Those of us in the real world weren't surprised.
Why did the AC lose Shannon? (Lost to the civvies who won a 1year 'interim' contract! Back in 1991!!!)  Why did they lose Dublin? (Perhaps because the AC would only supply daylight only!) Why did they lose Waterford? The answer is fairly simple....they were badly mismanaged, poorly funded....& refused point blank to learn from their mistakes. They maintained a last bastion in Finner. Alas the machines they used were not really up to scratch as SAR machines. So they were thrown a lifeline....a fully fitted SAR S-61. They didn't even have to maintain it themselves. Alas....having learnt nothing in the world of CRM & man management the AC blew that too!
The Blue Flu was caused by unsafe working practices, poor CRM & old, poorly maintained safety equipment. ie Life Jackets. The civvy operator provided up to speck, fully serviced Mk44 Life Jackets (which are technically aircraft fit) but the AC opted to use it's own out of date LifeJackets & harnesses. As for their working practices....who can say...the mind boggles & thank god there haven't been any further tragedies!
So...while you all sit there & blame the government, the civvies & your own winch crews....why not look at it a bit closer....why not investigate the idiots responsible for the tragedy in Waterford & the desperate mismanagement of their staff & resources in Sligo.
Face it....the civvies do it better....most european countries are going down the civvy road.....& having seen the way things are in your AC, I'd suggest you take a moment & wonder if perhaps there isn't a lesson to be learnt here!

Happy 2004!

Michael Gilligan

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« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2004, 01:35:57 pm »
Hi Guys

I am new to this board but I love Aviation and the Air Corps.
I was in Galway before Christmas and would I be right in saying that Galway Hospital would be the the busiest for helicopter ops in the Country, The Shannon S61 and the Alouette were in a few times while I was there most were I think medivacs from the Islands and fishing trawlers off the coast.

Regards
Michael '<img'>

Offline sealion

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« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2003, 04:34:32 pm »
Whatever about SAR being a military task(which it is not) Hems is completly civilian. It is in no way a military role. May as well be using the Mowag as an ambulance,and McKee as a hospital. I know of no nation where HEMS is carried out by te military. Even Air Ambulance is a civilian task,which the air corps has carried out over the years because there was no other company or public body willing or able to carry it out. The sooner we get rid of the civilian tasks,the sooner we will have a proper military air arm. It may be smaller but it will be effective. A jack of all trades is after all,master of none.

Offline FiannaFail

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« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2004, 08:01:35 pm »
Silver,
A word of wisdom from an old hack - Being the devils advocate can get you in trouble in this site! However all the discussion has been worthwhile and needs to be aired.  I have my views on the Air Corps role in the future  with regard to appropriate heli role but I would accept that many would disagree. For example many are attached to the SAR role that we performed with great valor down the years.  I just cant change my view that our role will change in a changing Europe which will see the need for a more military function - troop carrying etc.
King regards,
FiannaFail ':<img:'>
Patricia Guerin

Offline Pink Panther

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« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2003, 05:12:56 pm »
Sealion,
you have just hit the nail on the head. '<img'>