Author Topic: How we nearly joined NATO  (Read 1952 times)

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Offline davephelan

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How we nearly joined NATO
« on: December 30, 2010, 07:50:47 pm »
According to the 1980 government papers revealed today , as part of the negotiations between Thatcher and Haughey, we seriously discussed possible/probable NATO membership for ROI . I was just wondering, considering the times that were in it, if we had joined, what do people think might have happened the Defense Forces, particularly the Aer Corp . In my opinion, the most likely scenario, was to see US foces based here . Most likely to include the following , a P-3 squadron, probably based in Shannon or Knock, and also an air defense squadron, F-15A s probably .Also we might have had part of the country used for low level training, and the likely regular naval visits to Cork etc, possibly including Carriers .
The other scenario is that the Aer Corp might have been expanded . If  similar requirements to the above were included, we might have seen the supply of surplus F-4E s which were readily available from US stocks at the time, and also possibly the supply of C-130s  . Im not sure we would have bought or being supplied with MR aircraft, as the US seemed to have had adequate numbers of aircraft, the baseing rights for a permanent deployment would have been more valuable  i think . Perhaps we might have been supplied with surplus F-4 s in exchange for the baseing rights ? I ventured Knock as a possible base, because i do remember chat amongst the spotters in Dublin around that time, that the runway was of a lenght to accomodate B-52s and other US military aircraft, that Monsignour Horan, was hedging his bets regarding the viability of the airport ,. Also of course the yanks would have been interested in having fighter aircraft which could help to cover the UK-Iceland gap , i seem to recall there was a plan to deploy fighter to Macrahinish in the Hebridies to partly close this gap . Anyway, just wonder what the rest of ye think of this scenario?

Offline thurian

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Re: How we nearly joined NATO
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2010, 09:13:48 pm »
Strictly a personal opinion but I'm certainly glad the wooden planks never got a base here. :ireland:

Offline davephelan

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Re: How we nearly joined NATO
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2010, 07:14:48 pm »
Everyone to their own, but it would have been something else to have Fast Jets based in the country  . I think i would have set up a camp like the hippy lezzies at greenham Common, only i would have been supporting NATO not opposing them .

Offline Silver

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Re: How we nearly joined NATO
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2010, 07:34:22 pm »
I have mixed feelings about it, but overall I think I'm glad we stayed out of NATO.

But it would have been interested if the AC had been equipped with F-4's, F-5's, C130's,  etc

Offline Frank

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Re: How we nearly joined NATO
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2010, 07:51:58 pm »
+1 for joining NATO.

Don't think we could have afforded to fly cheap F-4's though.
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Offline davephelan

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Re: How we nearly joined NATO
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2010, 09:07:04 pm »
I think if we had had such aircraft we would have been supported financially . Think about it, how did countrirs like Greece etc manage to operate aircraft like these?

Offline Baldonnel-boy

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Re: How we nearly joined NATO
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2011, 03:29:32 pm »
Think about it, how did countrirs like Greece etc manage to operate aircraft like these?

You cant compare a small (Pop 3 Million) island country in the Atlantic with a Medium (Pop 10+ million) country bordered by warsaw pact country's...

Offline davephelan

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Re: How we nearly joined NATO
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2011, 04:42:21 pm »
I see where you are coming from, but if the location was worthwhile, strategically speaking, then the yanks seemed to be willing to spend the money . Look at the level of forces deployed to Iceland, during the early 80s, it usually included an F-15 sqn, a KC-135 det, an E-3 det, and a P-3sqn, and that to a country , in the Atlantic, with a population of 250,000 . In my original scenario, i tried to be realistic about what i thought might have happened, if i had let my imagination really run, i would dream of the 48th FW moving to Baldonnel . Now there would be an excuse to go on the dole if ever i heard one !!!

Offline Irish251

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Re: How we nearly joined NATO
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2011, 05:04:46 pm »
I see where you are coming from, but if the location was worthwhile, strategically speaking, then the yanks seemed to be willing to spend the money . Look at the level of forces deployed to Iceland, during the early 80s, it usually included an F-15 sqn, a KC-135 det, an E-3 det, and a P-3sqn, and that to a country , in the Atlantic, with a population of 250,000 . In my original scenario, i tried to be realistic about what i thought might have happened, if i had let my imagination really run, i would dream of the 48th FW moving to Baldonnel . Now there would be an excuse to go on the dole if ever i heard one !!!

Iceland was in a very strategic location.  The Greenland-Iceland-UK gap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIUK_gap was where Soviets subs would have used to access the North Atlantic and of course the other big US fear was of Soviet bomber attacks on North America via the polar regions.  Considering that the US (and indeed the UK) never showed great interest in maintaining significant aviation assets in either Northern Ireland or Scotland, especially beyond the 1960s, I am not so sure that the Republic of Ireland would have been as useful as people suggest.  However I think Shannon would probably have been used extensively as a transit point had it been available to the USAF in the 1950s in the way that Prestwick was.  It is closer to the Great Circle route between Europe and the US/Canada and could have been very useful for the range-limited aircraft of the time. 

Offline Gnat

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Re: How we nearly joined NATO
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2011, 02:07:36 pm »
Everyone to their own, but it would have been something else to have Fast Jets based in the country  . I think i would have set up a camp like the hippy lezzies at greenham Common, only i would have been supporting NATO not opposing them .

This was all a bit before my time, but reading up about the period I do not believe that the Irish People would have gone along with joinimg NATO. I think we did OK in our stance during the Emergency ie neutral in favour of the Allies. I do not consider it fair to use the term "hippy lezzies" for people who had a different view and an absolute right to protest about a serious issue. There were a lot of well known people who supported that view male and female but were not actively involved, were they also hippy  lezzies? I tend to agree with Silver an Thurian.
Gnat
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Offline davephelan

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Re: How we nearly joined NATO
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2011, 04:03:32 pm »
I tend to be dismissive of those people because they choose to protest at a system, 'the West' which tolerated their protests by offering a defense against the Warsaw pact, where there protests would have resulted in a one way trip to a re-education camp . The irish people have always had a very ambiguous relationship with NATO and the Allies . Does anyone really think, we would have had a better country if the Nazis, or the USSR had won the second world war or the Cold War ? We are happy to mock Nato, the Brits and the Yanks, while sheltering in the umbrella that they provided . We have never really had to spend on defense, because other countries were willing to spend on theirs for us. They provided a serious defense, so we didnt need to . Think of all the protests we have had, including when Royal Navy vessels have visited the republic in recent years? yet as recently as 1993, when a trawler ran aground on the rocks, outside Howth harbour, we had to call a RAF wessex from Valley, thats what 71 years of neutrality and independence brought us to

Offline Gnat

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Re: How we nearly joined NATO
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2011, 05:58:51 pm »
I am really lost for words on how to reply to your drivel, unbeliveable.
Gnat
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Offline thurian

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Re: How we nearly joined NATO
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2011, 06:50:54 pm »
Dave, you're a more senior member than myself or Gnat but I seriously doubt you should be dragging this political potato out onto this forum, last time I checked, this forum was about planes and spotting and photography of said same, not about whether Dev was right or wrong declare us neutral and to deny the allies use of the country during the "Emergency" and believe me, they did not give us as much shelter as you might think. Eire Inc spent a bloody small fortune in the early years of the war buying up freighters from around the world to keep us supplied with the basics because the british would only provide us with enough to maintain us just above starvation, this was despite the fact  we had turned over our entire tanker fleet (all seven ships) to them at the start of WW2. This really ain't the place for this.

Offline Tempest

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Re: How we nearly joined NATO
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2011, 07:36:31 pm »
Dave, you're a more senior member than myself or Gnat but I seriously doubt you should be dragging this political potato out onto this forum, last time I checked, this forum was about planes and spotting and photography of said same, not about whether Dev was right or wrong declare us neutral and to deny the allies use of the country during the "Emergency" and believe me, they did not give us as much shelter as you might think. Eire Inc spent a bloody small fortune in the early years of the war buying up freighters from around the world to keep us supplied with the basics because the british would only provide us with enough to maintain us just above starvation, this was despite the fact  we had turned over our entire tanker fleet (all seven ships) to them at the start of WW2. This really ain't the place for this.

Thurian, you just added to the topic so let me comment on your post.
You complain that the British (I will give them a capital B) "would only provide us with enough to maintain us just above starvation".  The British were under no obligation to provide us with anything!  They were a country at war!  It was hardly their fault that Ireland didn't in any credible way organise itself for the war that seemingly everyone else could see coming and prepared themselves for.  And that includes aircraft.  Is it any surprise the Air Corps only got dregs when the Irish government belatedly decided we should have a semblance of a credible air defence?  65 years later and there are still so many examples of Irish governance being incapable of running a truly independent country!  Makes me sick!

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Re: How we nearly joined NATO
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2011, 08:22:23 pm »
Considering that the US (and indeed the UK) never showed great interest in maintaining significant aviation assets in either Northern Ireland or Scotland, especially beyond the 1960s

Im sorry but the Nimrod never sprang to your mind there with regard to Scotland or the near entire Tornado F3 ADV Fleet??

I am not so sure that the Republic of Ireland would have been as useful as people suggest.  However I think Shannon would probably have been used extensively as a transit point had it been available to the USAF in the 1950s in the way that Prestwick was.

The location of EINN would be perfect for "Reach" Aircraft but it also would have been ideal for USN Ops using the P3C.