Hello Folks

[Jetman]

Hello all. Ive been reading the forum for a while and just joined yesterday. Im Irish and immensely proud of the Air Corps. Im a mad aircraft buff but my expertise extends to 1/72 scale models only. I have a few questions on different things but the first one is about the PC9s. Great looking wee plane it is. Forgive me if Im 8 years late for the party and these things have maybe been asked before.

The most obvious point is that the PC9s are props and theres no jets anymore since the Fougas. Bearing in mind that the PC9s were bought at a time when the Celtic Tiger was still able to roar a bit I wondered why no jets ? Is it true that there were Czech L159s in the frame for more or less the same prices / package ? Maybe theres some old threads about it all but I cant find them. Great site too BTW and brilliant pictures. well done all !

[Machlooper]

The Air Corps did evaluate an L-139 in 2000 (it was present at the Airshow that year, LSS badge and all!)
Not sure of the politics but there where some heated phonecalls made on the ramp by the Aero representatives to whoever ?
Air Corps pilots flew the jet throughout the weekend.

[Jetman]

Cheers Mach, I didnt know that, mind you theres a lot I dont know. As a jetfreak its a pity they never got them. How long are we " stuck " with the PC9s then ? Another 10 years ? I wonder will jets be considered in the next ( no doubt far off ) aircraft procurement round ?

[Tempest]

Welcome to the forum!

Most air forces have moved away from jets for intermediate training (which is realistically as far as Air Corps pilots go from a military point of view).  Turbo-props are much cheaper to run.  Don't forget the 8 PC9s and the back-up package cost about 60m, which is an enormous sum of money for a country which doesn't possess anything which graduate pilots can move on to (in military terms).  The 6 Fougas cost less then 2m in the mid 70's.  So, no jets ever again unless there is a massive shift in the political mindset towards providing a serious defence forces.  That's just the way it is!

[Jetman]

Cheers Tempest. I can sort of see the sense in that argument. Pity tho. Is there really that big a difference in fuel terms in flying say a 159 versus a PC9 ? If so whats the difference. Surely one can argue if a country can afffors to bu planes then they can afford to put juice in them ?

[Jetman]

Still waiting for an answer on this one men.

[Jetman]

Sorry mate dunno what you mean. Just asked a question, could maybe find it out on google but thought I would ask you lads.

[Gnat]

PC9's are cheaper to operate of course, there just is not the money there, can't you see that we are all being screwed? The Air Corps dont hold the purse strings its the bean counters in Kildare St.
Gnat
(I sting)

[Ascot 1960]

Hi Jetman,
I see you are new to this forum. Generally you will find on most forums, the forum is only as good as the people who contribute to it. As for this one, you will find the standard is very high with well informed and interesting contributes who are always willing to help when and if they can.
So just be a little patient, someone will I hope get back if they can.
Enjoy.

[Irish251]

Ascot has it right.  I would add, though, that when an issue (such as why the Air Corps does not acquire combat jets) has been "done to death" in recent years on this and other forums, it is less likely that you will attract contributions.

[Jetman]

Sorry lads. I did say I wasnt an expert. Thanks for your answers thus far. The only thing I know about fuel is putting it in the car. Which aint that cheap. So for arguments sake ( and I reiterate that Im no expert ) if its £40 to run a PC9 for 5 minutes is it £80 to run a jet ? Or is it £60. Just wondering like. Cheers men. Ul probaly laff at this cos I havnt a clue meself.

[Joe McDermott]

Hi Jetman, welcom tyo the forum. I'm no expert either but I believe the L139 would have a fuel burn in excess of 50% greater than the PC-9M.

If memory serves me part of the consideration by DoD on the L139 was the offset issue. The version of the L139 offered was fitted with Allied Signals avionics, some of which were made in Ireland, at their Waterford plant at the time. I think Allied Signals closed that plant in 2001.

Photo: The Heavy Metal Aerobatic Display Team, 5 4-39, Wings Over Houston 2011, Ellington Field.

[Jetman]

Thanks Joe. Well that would make a difference allright. But at the same time, if a country can buy planes of any type then surely they can fuel them ? Not much point me buying a car if I cant put the petrol in etc. I spose what Im saying is buy jets. Chripes we are a COUNTRY ! Fuel should not be a consideration at all. Thats about it really, I dont buy the fuel deficit argument. I really dont. And I know its not the fault of the IAC, these people are heroes. The govt of the ROI has sucked for years and it still does.

[Irish251]

Thanks Joe. Well that would make a difference allright. But at the same time, if a country can buy planes of any type then surely they can fuel them ? Not much point me buying a car if I cant put the petrol in etc. I spose what Im saying is buy jets. Chripes we are a COUNTRY ! Fuel should not be a consideration at all. Thats about it really, I dont buy the fuel deficit argument. I really dont. And I know its not the fault of the IAC, these people are heroes. The govt of the ROI has sucked for years and it still does.

This is an aviation forum, not a political one.  However the term "ROI" is not correct.  The official English language name of the State is "Ireland".

[Claudel Hopson]

Just reading all this and just want to point out a few things.

The L139 pilot was complaining to the organisers of that airshow, as he had been promised a display slot on the Sunday, travelled to Ireland from Spain at his own expense, only to have his slot cancelled and allocated to something else on the Sunday at very short notice, despite having been allowed to practice his routine on the Friday and Saturday, also at his own expense. He was killed a few months later in a crash at another airshow.

The L139, SIAI Marchetti S211, second hand Alpha jets, Aer Macchi jet trainer (can't think of the model number at the moment, 336 maybe?) were all considered as a Fouga replacement, but nothing came of it as we all know.

The PC9 was bought after the Tucano, PZL, Texan II were also looked at to replace the SF260 and Fouga.

The PC9 has its controls rigged to give a jet-like performance at higher speed ranges, using it's TAD system. The 950 SHP PT6 has plenty of grunt for an airframe its size, and as said earlier on is economical in fuel burn compared to true jets.

How much fuel does it burn, if you fly around at max cruise or carry around four full gun/rocket pods, it'll suck fuel and empty the tanks in just over an hour, or you can go easy and just doddle around and the fuel will last 4 and a half hours. With a full load of 516 litres of Jet A1 you can work out yourself the cost of fuel.