The Answer to our Medium Lift needs?

[Taj]

Interesting Mat
Nice piece of kit too,looks a bit lighter than a Blackhawk but it can accomodate 15 soldiers in a 5+5+5 high density seating arangement.Have to wonder what that would do to the range though.
Agusta/Bell are marketing its speed as the fastest way in and out of a battlefield.

[MatRotor]

There was a small piece in a recent rotor and wing saying the USCG was looking at 20 or 30. cant remember much else in the article ie price, range etc '>

Oh dear, I saw the 139 pics with a ten seat arrangement for troops (plus two door gunners up the front) and the guys have their knees interlocking. Even the 139 reps admit that these would be troops basically stripped to their underwear, so I fail to see 15 guys getting in there. For trooping that is not the way to do it. Too awkward. With an eight seat arrangement facing out the doors, the guys still looked wedged in and they had no belt kit to worry about. Methinks that it is a fast and powerful machine, but there just isn't enuff space for a fully equipped section. I know there is a baggage compartment, but hauling packs in and out of there is gonna do someone damage and slow the whole operation down. Not to mention that the heli is still in its certification phase and doesn't exist as a military machine yet, so the IAC could be a military launch customer with all the associated snags and teething trouble.

The Air Corps will never buy Blackhawks for its own purposes, they are just too big. The army needs to state it's requirement for a heli this size and state it loudly. IMHO it is a vastly superior heli for roughly the same (equipped) cost and it is in service. The Turks will not send the Cougar or 412 into a combat zone, just the Blackhawk. If the army needs organic helicopter support overseas, then the S 70 is the one!

[MatRotor]

Good point about the size scorpy. plus the 139 has a waiting list of 2 to 3 yrs for the civie version andthe air corps could do with something before the end of the year considering the impending retirement of the dauphin

[alpha foxtrot 07]

guys the blackhawk is in no way to big. its the perfect a/c for the air corps. it can do every job the corps does, its a proven machine, parts are cheap and the production line is still up and running. the americans have hundreds in storage which can be bought pretty cheap. the augusta is too small to carry combat troops in meaningful numbers.
the UH-60 is a proven airframe and the corps would get 20 to 30 years out of them. like i said earlier 12 would do and mabe 3 to 4 H-300's for training. common a/c common training; money saved, buy more a/c. mabe even get those fighters you guys are always talking about.

[alpha foxtrot 07]

scorpy
when you say S-70, i think of the firehawk. the firefighting blackhawk, is this the a/c your talking about or is ther another S-70 out there.

Nope, the S70A is the export version of the UH 60 L sold to Non US states. Doubt the firehawk would be much use to us...

[p.diddy.cool]

Hi everyone,

its been a while since ive been online.. up to my..., anyhoo i heard from a good line in the don that a helicopter company came in last week and "suggested that if" (HA HA) the Air Corps were to start a tender process that they would offer such and such... at a very good price... it will cause quite a stir if it comes off.. And the new Chief of Staff approched the air corps about helicopter transport for trops cause he is sick of hitching lifts from other nations while on missions overseas! and of course CSAR has been mentioned also...

For your info and scrutiney! lol

Regards P.D.C  

[alpha foxtrot 07]

so scorpy why is the blackhawk to big and the S-70 not?

[MatRotor]

good argument alpha. well thought out and logical. pity the bean counters don't understand logic and whose only thought is how to save a few pennies to pay for the govts next pay rise or pension hike. '>

I only said that the Blackhawk is too big for the Air Corps utility requirement which is seen predominantly as a training intro to larger SAR helis. This would require a more simple, preferably single-pilot aircraft (such as the, "CHOKE" A109) to train guys straight off the PC9 to fly. There is really not a hell of a lot of point in going straight in as a P2 on a multi crew aircraft and spending 4 years doing damn all handling, when you could be gaining experience in decision making and handling as a PIC. The Air Corps actually has very few roles that it generates itself, training being the most obvious and pertinent one, most of the roles that are carried out are in support of other agencies such as the Coastguard, Health Boards and Govt agencies such as fisheries. An Air Corps specific role would be something like Air Interdiction, Combat SAR or Close Support/escort of TTH. These types of role would suit the S70 down to the ground. These are more akin to the roles of an Air Force (Oh glory be). Unfortunately, the Govt won't make the decision to designate these as roles by committing to sending organic helicopter support overseas, which would automatically dictate the S70 as the realistic choice for a utility heli. Buying them would however generate a requirement for a lighter trainer such as the EC120, but buying from two manufacturers opens up a whole new can of worms. You could of course lease the trainers, or 'get out of training altogether' and send your students overseas to train. The Air Corps voice in what will be purchased will be drowned out by the DoD beancounters and the Min Def reluctance to be serious about his job. Only the Army can shout loud enough to be heard on this matter and it is the Army that has multiple requirements for a larger utility helicopter like the S70. They ain't shouting yet and if they don't, it will be too late and another 40 years of 'didn't the Air Corps do a crap job of selecting such an incapable machine for utility and support of the army'. At the end of the day I would love to see the Air Corps come out of this with the Blackhawk, I think that their capability is only limited by this narrow minded view of 'train first, ops second'. I accept that training is required, but at the expense of a real operational role by limiting the side of aircraft and the number of aircraft purchased? Not in my book. Give them a real fighting chance to prove that the last 41 years of training can be put to good use doing their job in support of the army and defending the state.

And so ends another edition of 'My Two Cents'! :'>

Oh yeah, back on topic, scrub Medium Lift, just buy more Blackhawks! They do the same job and would fulfil the requirements of TTH, SAR etc if you send 25% more on the mission or have a second one on standby to assist a long range multi casualty SAR. Just a thought...

[alpha foxtrot 07]

well scorpy i cannot argue with what you have said, but can you say what would be a better a/c. if the corps is never going to them then what, what about the deal for the medium lift heli's that was signed with sikorsky, but was lost because the french cried. going by that tender there is a need for troop carrying a/c.
now enter the blackhawk. name one job it cannot do!

[MatRotor]

hey PDC, heard the opposite regarding the army from a similar line. the air corps have fobbed the army off for years and lately because they have been sucking up to them they expect the army to come on board and help them get new toys for our boys. i'll believe it when i see it!!

Alpha, there is no better aircraft! It will just take a culture change in the senior management to ditch the theory of using a light, single pilot, single engine to give junior pilots experience before challenging them with a larger multi, and an acknowledgement that training is useless unless you have something to train for. People are still holding on to the hope that SAR will be won back (if) when a capable aircraft can do the job. Purchasing a less than capable aircraft now would be the death knell of that hope, as the skill set will be lost due to a lack of operational experience. There also seems to be an attitude that Army Support missions are 'easy' and don't really require that much training. Bull. How the hell are pilots supposed to know how to deal with contingencies and changing situations if they don't train. If there is one heli pilot that knows the procedures to avoid or minimise the risk from IR and Radar guided weapons I'd like to meet him. At least if you are TOLD to provide a CSAR service and you have the appropriate equipment, you can train to that end. Ambling along in the dark, not knowing what your role is will never allow you to be vocal in what equipment to purchase to fulfil that role. The basic skills are much the same for pilot and crew of a CSAR heli and those of the Civ SAR boys. In fact I'd say the CSAR boys have a harder time of it because of all the extra factors to be taken into account. Not least of which is people shooting at you.

Lets not get tetchy, I am a complete advocate of the Blackhawk for the Air Corps, but my say won't result in their purchase. Perhaps Director of Operations or The COS would be a little more appropriate and a lot more influential!??