New Helis - E26 million?

[Silver]

There is an article in the Sunday Independent (4th July) about Minister Smith's tenure (to date) as Minister for Defence.

In it, he suggests that he is going to spent c.E26 million on the new helis.

Does that give us a better indication of what type he is 'eyeing up' '>

[sealion]

From the Sunday Independent, 4th July 2004

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independ...&issue_id=11094

A minister armed with great force

THE MODERNISER: 'When I was in the Curragh first, I was ashamed of it,' says Minister Michael Smith. Photo: Julien Behal

IT'S unlikely that Ireland will ever go to war again. The opportunities would be a bit limited. If push came to shove, we'd probably be able to take Slovenia or Lithuania in a straight fight - if they didn't use their tanks. But Defence Minister Michael Smith has boosted our chances by overseeing one of the most dramatic and, at times, painful modernisations of our army, naval service and air corps.

"One way or another you couldn't make a comparison with other armies. But we'd be seen, for our size, as very well equipped," he says.

Smith has spent a lot of money making the Defence Forces that bit more intimidating. He squeezed a fair bit out of Charlie McCreevy but the rest of the funds came from the controversial closure and sale of €100m worth of barracks around the country. Costs were also slashed by cutting Defence Forces numbers down. He also saved up to €1.2bn playing hardball over the deluge of army deafness claims.

The Defence Forces have a budget somewhere over €950m. Stripping out €150m in pensions, the remainder goes to equip, pay and house the 10,500 members of the defence forces.

The army has 8,500 soldiers, a further 1,100 serve in the naval service, with the air corps some 900 strong. Apart from nearly 1,500 civilians or civil servants, there are also about 12,000 reserve members of the Defence Forces.

The Irish army is unrecognisable since Smith moved from the Department of the Environment to take up the brief in 1997. He pointedly ignored suggestions that some of the Defence Forces were still armed with pikes.

At one stage it seemed that some members of the army had become so rotund that their only possible role in defending the country, would have been to load them up into cannon and shoot them at invaders. "We don't have that now. We had a little of it," he admits.

Smith has spent a whopping €320m tooling up the army with better weapons and updating the infrastructure. This includes armoured personnel carriers, two coastal defence ships and new aircraft. Almost €10m was spent acquiring the Javelin anti-tank missile system, as used to deadly effect by US and Australian special forces during Gulf War II.

But Smith didn't just buy stuff that goes boom. "We were very poor in communications," says Smith. "So we spent €10m to €12m updating that. We didn't have a field hospital either, so we had to buy one. We also had to buy equipment for emergency planning. We had no way of detecting anthrax. Now we have 7,000 NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical protection) suits," he says.

The spending isn't over yet though. A tender is imminent for the supply of six helicopters for the air corps. There's no price tag on the contract yet. "Obviously I'm going to have some sales of the aircraft I already have. I'd be hoping to raise four, five or six million from that and then I'd hope to get away with about €20m after that," he suggests.

Once the helicopter deal is out of the way, Smith has set his sights on buying a large number of "light tacticalvehicles".

Despite the acquisition splurge, the Defence Forces don't really have all that much that would put manners on serious invaders. We don't have any sleek jet fighters or battle tanks. Nor are we likely to have.

"I have to be practical. I need the communications. I need the 'Drops' (all-terrain trucks) for Kosovo. I need the Mowag APCs for Africa because I can't say: 'Let's risk the anti-personnel mines'. I'm making decisions based on the resources available."

Privately, Defence sources suggest that giving the air corps a jet fighter would be about as useful as a chocolate teapot. While the cost of your weekly shopping may have gone through the roof, the arms industry has not suffered the same level of price inflation.

"No, we've done some great deals and we've held down the price. There's never been a better time to buy planes. We bought the Lear Jet for under €9m," he says. By paying hefty deposits and staggering payments, Smith says that he's been able to listen to the the demands from the different branches of the services.

Army deafnesss claims were one of the major issues facing Smith on his arrival in defence. "They were like a juggernaut careering down a hill out of control," he says plonking one leg up onto his desk. Early estimates suggested that the final compensation bill could hit €1.5bn.

Following tense negotiations and legal meandering, a yardstick (or quantum) to measure claims was introduced. The average claim was about €40,000 several years ago, it's now closer to €8,000. About €270m has been paid out in claims, with Smith suggesting that the final bill could come in at something less than €350m.

Smith has spent over €150m modernising Defence Forces facilities since 1997. Many of the barracks and facilities around the country were utter kips, having been starved of investment for decades. "When I was in the Curragh first, I was ashamed of it," he says.

By and large, the Irish army has distinguished itself on its humanitarian and peace-keeping missions around the world. At present the main missions are in Liberia and Kosovo, although Eritrea, Bosnia Herzegovina and East Timor have also hosted Irish troops. Smith is keen for the missions to be short and sweet.

"We were 23 years in Lebanon. I don't want to go on too long missions again. We should be able to go in and do a good job and come out. In the long run you can create an economic dependency," he says.

The Irish taxpayer coughs up most of the bills for the missions. "Liberia is a UN mission, so there will be some funding from them. But a large number of the missions we'd be undertaking, we'd fund ourselves," he says. "It's not too bad. You'd be talking about €10m to €12m a year on top of normal costs like pay and equipment."

There are no new missions on the horizon just yet, as we've nearly maxed out our UN obligations. "We have a commitment to send 850 men and we've got 800 out at the moment," he says. Smith is planning to change the law to allow reservists such as FCA members to serve abroad.

"In the early part I'd see it as more on the medical side or communications and IT and other specialist areas. Or cooking. Wherever I'm under pressure to meet the requirements of the mission."

One definite requirement of overseas missions is the presence of the Army Ranger wing. This is the Irish equivalent of the SAS or of America's Delta Force - in other words, the elite. The special forces unit costs considerably more than the regular Joes of the service, but Smith says the outfit is vital.

"There are certain missions where a component like that is essential. The early stages of a conflict are much more dangerous, so you need the best there."

While army sharpshooters were pitted against the ferocious Monaghan puma over the past week, Smith has had some battles of his own to face. He has been tipped as a possible ministerial casualty in the expected Cabinet reshuffle.

"These are matters entirely for the Taoiseach. It's an awful difficult task. The argument people like myself are making is that in the makeup of a Cabinet you need a mix of youth and experience," he says.

And yes men? Smith brought down a mountain of trouble on his head when he defied Bertie over the Hanly report. "It's only healthy having differences of opinion," he says. "I don't want a relationship with anyone where I have to say things that I don't really mean."

He's been one of the longest serving ministers in his post. "It's been a tremendous experience but if someone said did you prefer it to Environment I wouldn't say yes. Environment was totally different. The flash in Environment was everyday for the people. It was live wire stuff. Every day you were in trouble. Defence is a bit removed from time to time."

It may not seem to be the most essential of portfolios - but with Ireland following Iran and Iraq in the alphabet, there's always the chance that George Dubya may get an itchy trigger finger.

Nick Webb

[Imshi-Yallah]

Hmmm thats pretty insulting

[Sully]

I say fair play to Minister Smith. The first Minister in a long time who didn't just sit on his arse as Minister of Defence. He realised our defence force's needed serious investment and up-grading and he worked for it. Alot to be said for that...

[Pink Panther]

It rules out Blackhawks.Sounds like eurocopter have this one in the bag,they are the only ones who will give that type of money for the current fleet as trade ins.

[FiannaFail]

Hear hear scully!!
FiannaFail :'>

[sealion]

Quote (Pink Panther @ 06 July 2004,13:40)

It rules out Blackhawks.Sounds like eurocopter have this one in the bag,they are the only ones who will give that type of money for the current fleet as trade ins.

I don't think you can rule out anything at this stage. I heard from a reliable source that the options in the tender for a further 2 aircraft in thje Utility Heli class would only be taken if the selected aircraft was of smaller type. Therefor it would be 4 blackhawks,or 6 ec145.
The current state of the Dollar,and the US economy would mean that we can get more for our euro. What can you get for e8mil these days?
I dont think you can take anything from that "interview"(and i use the term loosely) as the Minister makes no mention of the fact that the price to be paid includes parts and training,not just helis.
The media(who have a clue) were talking around the e50m figure for the entire contract,LUH and UH. I would make that about e35 mil for the UH contract,before you consider resale value. Speaking of which,I think the minister is very ambitious if he thinks the sale of the remaining helis will generate that revenue. At this stage to sell,the allouettes would only make a few thousand each,and the sale of the remains of the Dauphin  would only see about a million per complete airframe,given the amount required to return them to flying condition.

[alpha foxtrot 07]

its hard to tell, they went for the h-92 last time, plus if the corps has anything to say about it they will get blackhawks.

[Sully]

Just in case of confusion, FiannaFail, I'm a Fine Gael man!  

But I do stand by my opinion on Minister Smith. He's doin a good job. Blackhawks now will be the icing on the cake!

[Fouga]

Sikorsky are still in with it Nobody has it in the Bag but EC is going strong.

[StevieW]

Fouga which types do you think EC will submit?

[FiannaFail]

No problem sully- being interested in politics is a good thing!  I admired Oliver J Flanagan FG when he was Minister!
Cheers,
FiannaFail '>

[Silver]

I would be quite happy to see -

4 x Pumas/Cougars
2/4 x EC145s (or EC635s) !


(If I had a few thousand to spare - and a heli licence ! - I would love to get my hands on an Alouette  '> )

[FiannaFail]

Good choice silver!
FiannaFail '>

[Guinness]

Silver,

why not depending on the good ol' Blackhawk.

The reasons for this are:

- cheaper
- easier to get ( 2nd handed from USAR surplus)
- proved it self the last decade in all terain like dessert, rain, snow.
- can be "ship based" as well as the SH-60 modell.

Just a thought from this side of the Irish Sea.

I DO agree though on the EC-145's !!

Guinness