Let's talk about the navy again!

[clan]

Unless you work for the EU you are not qualified to say we will not be getting any more money from the EU. The perception is we will not be getting more money, this is not the reality and that is a fact. I am aware of Htp Murphys posts but I also read Goldie Fishs post which he posted after a recent visit to Eithne where he was informed the Eithne "might" be converted back into a HPV. Granted work needs to done to amend the design faults for this to happen. But it is not impossible. I do not recall saying this could happen over night or even implying it could, this is Ireland nothing happens overnight unless you have brown envelope As we have very little use for a HPV on fishery protection duties with the Casa's now in place I was looking for other uses for the Vessel and maybe the Dauphins, it was an "idea" and as this is a discussion board I put my idea out there, how ever wild it may seem at first glance, it is possible as is winning the lotto how ever remote.
I think every one knows we need more ships, just like we need more helicopters, Planes, LUTV, tanks etc etc, but we are never going to spend our own money especially now with over 160 people on beds in corridors of Hospitals.
Complete Pie in the sky, is ungenerous and untrue, unless as I said you are qualifed to make those remarks which sadly it seems you are far from it. So maybe you could enlighten us with your ideas/thoughts instead of constantly knocking everyones else's as I seem to be struggling to find an original post from you on the board.

[pym]

I hope the irony of on the one hand not wanting the RAF providing long range SAR off our coast, but at the same time wanting the EU to fund our nations future military purchases isnt lost on everyone.

Clan I hope I misunderstood your post - or are you saying you see nothing to show for all the years of EU spending in this country?

And finally lads dont worry about defence, judging by the fireworks and bangers going off outside my house - we'd scare any invaders away, especially with the Gardai's recent re-equipment with 40ks worth of the stuff '>

[clan]

Yes Pym, when I was writing the post, I scratched my head and I could not think of one thing that stood out. Bearing in mind I am only back in the country seven years after been away for 10. I am sure there are many, prjects paid for by the Eu but I could not think of them at the time, I know the Casa's stand out, but infastructure wise I am at a loss.

[FMolloy]

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Unless you work for the EU you are not qualified to say we will not be getting any more money from the EU. The perception is we will not be getting more money, this is not the reality and that is a fact.

Do you honestly expect the EU to keep giving us handouts? They've to fund the new Eastern European member states & they're expecting us to start coughing up for it. Is that an honest belief or a hope?

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I am aware of Htp Murphys posts but I also read Goldie Fishs post which he posted after a recent visit to Eithne where he was informed the Eithne "might" be converted back into a HPV.

Are you referring to his comments on the recent family day at Haulbowline? If so, then you misunderstood him or read what you wanted to believe.

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Granted work needs to done to amend the design faults for this to happen. But it is not impossible. I do not recall saying this could happen over night or even implying it could

You said you were sure it could be easily done. Does that mean that you define the following as easy?:

1. Re-arranging plant inside of Eithne.
2. Replacing the glide slope indicator, deck handling equipment, non-slip surface on the heli deck & fold-down railings.
3. Finding accomodation for the flight crew.
4. Training several NS pilots, flight crews & maintanace crews.
5. Finding or building suitable facilities at Haulbowline for helis.

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this is a discussion board I put my idea out there, how ever wild it may seem at first glance, it is possible as is winning the lotto how ever remote.

I'd think there's a greater chance of you winning the lotto.

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unless as I said you are qualifed to make those remarks which sadly it seems you are far from it.

I'm about as qualified to make remarks as you are.

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So maybe you could enlighten us with your ideas/thoughts instead of constantly knocking everyones else's as I seem to be struggling to find an original post from you on the board.

Ok,

I'd like to see Baldonnel's infrastucture upgraded to complement the new equipment. I'd like to see at least one, & possibly two, extra CASAs for maritime patrol. I'd like to see the Cessnas replaced with something like a Caravan. Ideally I'd like 6 ML helis, my choice being the Puma/Coogar. However, since the AC's getting UH's I would like to see more than 6. I'd like to see 2 or 3 transport aircraft, either the C-295 or C-27J. I'm happy with the PC-9Ms in the training role. As for armed aircraft, if we wanted to push the boat out we could get a number of armed heli's (important if the AC is to operate abroad). Somewhere along the line the AC could get a light fighter for air defence, the TA-50 the Koreans are getting looks good on paper.

I'd also suggest getting UAV's for both the AC & NS.

If that's not good enough for you I could suggest getting Chinooks, Eurofighters, submarines, scud launchers etc. I could also suggest the EU pays for it.

[clan]

Thats a bit better, I like your choices of aircraft but unfortuantely you have as much chance as getting that list as I have of winning the lotto. And saying that nothing you have listed should be to difficult for us to get out of our own pocket. But I just cannot see it happening sadly. I certainly do not expect the EU to keep throwing money at us, but for certain projects they will if pushed and I have very very recent proof of that so in that respect I am qualified to make that remark. As for the 5 points you make, I cannot see any of them been much of a problem either, we have a country full of engineers of all descriptions doing this kind of work for other countries we could if we wished get them to do some work at home. Pilots might be trickier but not impossible.
But with over a 160 people lying in corridors of Hospitals at the moment I cannot see defence spending getting much support from anyone. I also read Goldie Fish post on the Eithne again, and I cannot see how I miss interpreted it, when he asked a Naval Ensign about the tie down points on the heli deck he was told they were due to be removed before the helicopters could be flown of the deck again, when he asked what this meant he was told never say Never.
Is this not the same as saying they "might" fly from Eithne again.
But I like your thinking even if you don't like anyone else's

[Imshi-Yallah]

Wow look its a levitating penny...

Hospital waiting lists have nothing to do with funding of defence, secondly UAVs are a cheaper option.

What makes you think that an organisation struggling to fill  its current establishment is going to suddenly meet a bigger requirement.
The Country is not full of air craft maintenance engineers willing to take a cut in their wage and live on little boaties in the atlantic, the ones serving in other countries even if they are willing to come back are bound by a little thing called contractual obligation and on finishing their contracts elsewhere are quite likely to have had their fill of full time boatie life.
What makes you think an Ensign in the NS is so knowledgable in the first place, as for never say never thats why they still sell candles, doesnt mean we're going to abandon electricity.

[Dublin Spotter]

As it states earlier in the Post thare are only 2 Dauphin still air worthy. I have seen that the US Coast Guars are upgrading there "Dolphins" for an average of $1.3 Million, this includes total new engines, spare parts, and the high light

"A reconfigured cockpit and specialized avionics software also are part of the retrofit package to facilitate the HH-65’s use in shipboard operations"

Is this not worth a look into, have the last couple upgraded, assigned to the Navy, base them own in "Haulbowline"

Therefore the new equipment coming online will be totally of use of the Air Corp and Army,

Just my 5 cent worth.

[futurepilot]

Quote (Imshi-Yallah @ 21 Oct. 2004,10:29)

Hospital waiting lists have nothing to do with funding of defence

Maybe not but can you imagine the uproar if Willie O`Dea announced today that the Air Corps was to get several hundred million for new Casa`s, Caravans, jets and the Navy was also to get sevral hundred million for a new fleet of 15 ships.
Naval helicopter ops should be brought back but as usual cost has to be considered. With defence spending so low , bringing Eithne up to par again, upgrading the Dauphins(which were completely unsuitable for the job in the first place) and training Air Corps pilots for naval ops , would be a huge drain on the Air Corps budget. Since the Casa`s are doing a great job, it would be a complete waste of resources to bring back naval heli ops.

[clan]

How about out sourcing the training to the RAF, or some other nation or Civilian service. As for Engineers been available a good pensionable job in the Civil Service weighed against uncertainty at Aer lingus, FLS etc. Plus new courses at the DIT in Carlow/Cork/Shannon. There might be one or two builders in the country that could put together a hanger some where in Haulbowline. As for the Ensign, no need to disrepect the lad, he I am sure knows a lot more then you or I do about the Ship.  I don't understand the Penny thing, We converted to Euros a few years ago.
And Future Pilot is correct, imagine been stuck in a Bed in a corridor of A & E with Charlie Bird and his Microphone beside you reading a story about no money left for the Hospitals which is next to the story about the goverment spending 50m on 6 new helicopters.
Even if, they converted the Gazelle and upgraded one Dauphin for VIP work it would release two of the new Helicopters for Pure Air Corp/Military work.

[Imshi-Yallah]

People are stupid and selfish, if everything was done according to their will Homeless people would probably be dissapeared off the streets.

[FMolloy]

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I certainly do not expect the EU to keep throwing money at us, but for certain projects they will if pushed and I have very very recent proof of that so in that respect I am qualified to make that remark.

Did any of those certain projects include funding the NS or AC? Were any of those projects fixing the problems of a previous EU-funded white elephant that ran over budget, like Eithne?

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As for the 5 points you make, I cannot see any of them been much of a problem either, we have a country full of engineers of all descriptions doing this kind of work for other countries we could if we wished get them to do some work at home.

We may have a country full of engineers, but unless they form a company & buy a shipyard they're unable to do anything. Unless of course you see them all converging on Haulbowline in some sort of mass wave of civic duty to do the work there.

Any work on Eithne would have to done abroad. Also, I'm no expert but the re-arrangement of the inside of the ship to facilitate the moving of avgas tanks sounds complicated & exspensive. I do not see how having the ability to operate a single heli from Eithne would justify that expense.

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But I like your thinking even if you don't like anyone else's

I like other people's ideas when they make sense. The ideas I espoused for the AC are very much in line with the thinking of a number of people who post here & on other boards. I'm sorry if I don't seem original to you, but after posting on the two IMO boards, both of Frank's boards & a couple of others, I'm a bit tired of saying the same thing over & over again.

[clan]

Sorry if I offended FMolloy, I have read your other posts on other boards as well, and I can scarcely find anything you have said in reply to anyones idea constructive in fact the majority are harshly dismissive without it seems using any military/technical knowledge to back you up. You made a sweeping statement to say the EU will not be giving us any more dosh. This is factually incorrect and this was pointed out to you, so you change your stance and now say they will not give money to the NS or the Air Corp. You said I misinterpreted Goldie Fishs post which I clearly did not.
I posted an idea, which was to be discussed, you did not like it so you trashed it as you do, but you fail on every count to offer reasonible discussion as you cannot back up any of your arguments with reasonable comments. Eithne might have had to go abroad for any alterations it might not. You clearly do not have the knowledge to answer that. If you do not like an idea, discuss why, do not make up reasons why it will not work. The idea might be out there with the fairies so what, reasonable discussion is what I thought this board was about.
Now we could go on and on, I say this you trash it I prove you wrong you trash something else. If that is all you have to do go somewhere else. Or we could get back to the topic in question which was "lets talk about the Navy again" which has had over 770 views and 55 replys so it is a hot topic.
Which people are interested in with some very good posts.

[pilatus]

as regards my earlier post i accept the corrections made but im almost sure that i saw in a book about the naval service that the dauphin was used to put a boarding party onboard a trawler?im currently reading through the books maybe i was wrong but maybe i wasnt?!il let u know if i find out about the boarding and the dauphin from the earlier post! '> and at about 6million you could have 2good navy dauphin with navy pilots flying from Haulbowline or why not use existing facilities at Bal or Cork airport near the navy  base? '>

[sealion]

Why are some people so intent on keeping the Dauphins? There are too many unhappy memories associated with them,in my opinion. As for upgrades,I have a 1985 datsun sunny outside(as a chicken shed) if ytou throw in a new engine and replace the bodywork i'm sure the gardai won't mind using it as a patrol car.. '>

It makes me laugh when i see people making suggestions about basing Helis at Haulbowline. I would love to know where. The parade square could at a push accomodate one heli,but the proximity of the HF antanne may have something to say about that...Never mind the High Voltage power lines.
As for Cork,how successful have the air corps been with basing aircraft away from the don so far?
Shannon?
Finner?
Waterford?
Sligo?
Gormanstown?

Eithne has been in dry dock for the last month. She is being fitted with davits for high speed RIBs to replace the boarding boats which were removed about 5 years ago. it was supposed to be in for 2 weeks. That was the week after the Naval Family day...back at the beginning of september... The current skipper is keen to get a heli back on the helideck,but at this stage,none of the crew(apart from the rose tinted spectacle wearers fresh out of the Naval school) expect to see this. The only possibility is that one of the new LUH whether EC135 or A109 will make an odd visit,for familiarity purposes. But if this is the case,they will be doing so in calm seas,at anchor. The helideck is now a cargo deck,and the hardpopints and tiedowns which were installed for an overseas trip that never materialised,are there to stay.
The next generation of naval vessel may be equipped with a helideck,but naval ops of the type eithne was designed for,will probably not be seen again.

[pilatus]

sealion you mention finner!?why?the corps have operated out of finner without trouble as to the best of my knowledge!?the reason the finner operation was stopped was because SAR was taken over by the s61 40miles down the road at sligo!