Let's talk about the navy again!

[pilatus]

Does the Candaian sub accident not emphasise the need for heli equipped ships?say for instance if the sub went down after being stranded surfaced and there were 50survivors floating about out there would it not be better to have a frigate equipped with merlin class chopper capable of picking up 20+survivors than waiting for RAF/RN or coastguard heli's to pick them up with their base floating near to them rather than having to fly 140 miles back to mainland to drop of survivors and by the time it would arrive back the rest of the survivors might not be there!? '>

[Dublin Spotter]

It is about time that the navy had its own dedicated Helicopter wing. Ships large enough to station a Merlin Class helicopter on board. Maybe down the line if the rumours on other boards are to go by, then there will be ships large enough to jouse multiple helicopters. It is a tragedy like this that it really bring it to home how under equiped bothe the Navy and Air Corps are when it comes to "Deep Warter" SAR,

[The SeaWolf]

Firstly, may I may extend my smypathy to the unforuntate crewmen on the stricken submarine and RIP to the crew member who has, sadly perished.

What I wanted to ask was bearing in mind that we generally agree here that Ireland's Aer Corps and Naval service are er, somewhat overstretched what is a realistic timescale for them to be rejenuvated in? (provided some actual investment is forthcoming from central govt.)

Judging from the general tone of conversation here the dream scenario would be one in which a small fleet of modern, fast jets might operate out of Ireland. As realistically, this is unlikely to happen what do you think the main priorities should be in the next 5-10 years?

On a personal note I am astounded as an outside observer by the fact that Ireland has such a small naval fleet, which is tasked with patrolling a huge area. I know several private reports have strongly recommend increasing the fleet from 8 to at least 12 (and ideally 16 vessels) and restructuring the Aer Crops from the ground up with newer equipment. Sadly, since the Dail seem to regard Ireland's military with a certain ammount of disdain I see no future in which it will be modernised myself. On the offchance that it were though what would be the rough cost does anybody know of enlarging the Aer Crops to include say a small fleet of more modern SAR equipped helicopters and purchasing at least one more HPV for the Naval service?

The current tragedy shows it is important I think for the Republic to have it's own capabilties in this area, it cannot and should not always have to rely on the RAF.

[tashkurgan]

My .02c

Well you know what, we do spend quite an amount complaining about the lack of capability in a number of key defense areas, but I do think we actually have good SAR cover for a country this size.

We don't need Frigates with EH101s. The 5 Coastguard S-61Ns we have (4 operational plus one spare) actually gives the country a pretty good SAR capability.

[The SeaWolf]

Are the S-61s run independently of the Air Corps? I should point out I am relatively new to the board and my knowledge of the helicopter fleet is derived largely from the Defence Force's own site and sites like Irish Military Online. Not been aware of the existence of these 5 copters I partly retract my comments although I still think the Naval service needs expansion (but that falls outside the scope of this forum) generally.

[futurepilot]

All but one of the s61s are operated by CHC while the s61 in Sligo is operated by the Air Corps although not for long  '>

[sealion]

You could get a basic patrol vessel,with a helideck capable of operating a medium sized heli for about E30m. Check out the new Kiwi designs(by the same crowd who designed the P50 class),or the River class RN patrol vessels,which can be fitted with a helideck,if required.
Even the older Castle class of the RN have a helideck,which can land a seaking,with little else.
Whats the point in just getting the bare minimum though?
A Large multirole vessel could have been in a position to assist in the rescue operation,and treat the injured crew without needing to evacuate to a nearby hospital,like in this case,Sligo.

[The SeaWolf]

So we are not talking (at least in military terms) really huge money then even by the standards Ireland spends on it's military budget, although I notice said budget has been marginally cut in the proposed Irish budget.

Also if Ireland is serious about subscribing to UN missions and maintaining it's commitment to these surely some sort of transport ship for troops and equipment with the capability for multiple helicopters (2 to 4) to land and depart would be a major asset. In the short term at least surely this would be a useful step in making the defences forces more up-to-date and efficient. Also, the argument for buying decent equipment can with the submarine disaster be seen to be more than a purely military one -as pointed out a decent ship could have provided on the scenes assistance*. None of this is any reflection of course upon the individuals who perservere to do their best in both the Naval Service and Air Corps with the equipment they are given.

I can see that anything like fast jets etc. are not to be seriously considered for some time yet but many small countries at a similar income level have a far better equipment base.
 
* Which in all honesty the Royal Navy did very professionally of course. However it is irksome to think that the Irish Republic lacks the capability to do so itself, the old excuses that 'we don't have the finances' are beginning to wear rather thin.

[Bitch]

Good points raised folks, and yes once again the ugly head raises itself about wether or not we should have ships with Helis onboard or not. Murphys law will dictate that where there is a serious incident the Heli Equiped ship will be somewhere else a large distance away. Regarding the Canadian Sub incident I can tell you from first hand knowledge there was no interest in using "Any" Irish Rescue asset last tuesday when this incident occured, it was a British and Canadian Military operation and it was to stay that way.
This Island is currently well resourced with rescue assets and if there "not required" as was the case last tuesday then all the shipbourne helis that we might ever dream of having may be as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike. Roll on the day that we do have a well equiped military system.

[clan]

This might seem a stupid question, but if the three injured crew members of the Sub were airlifted off the day of the accident or the next day by the Air Corp S61 could we have saved the life of young Sailor. Instead of waiting for a doctor to put on board some days later.

[Imshi-Yallah]

We have no pressing need for a single helicopter vessel, why dont you people ever think about real needs instead of trying to justify your fantasies on one or two specific incidents.
The NS has far more need for an unglamourous ocean going tug, and a naval helicopter wing would never be justified, if naval heli ops can be justified then it must be on the scale of a large troop vessel capable of operating at least four helicopters...there is ample justification for that but great expense which rules it out.

[Pink Panther]

Quote (clan @ 08 Oct. 2004,12:59)

This might seem a stupid question, but if the three injured crew members of the Sub were airlifted off the day of the accident or the next day by the Air Corp S61 could we have saved the life of young Sailor. Instead of waiting for a doctor to put on board some days later.

Hindsight is 20/20 vision, that decision lay with the commander of the sub.As for naval vessels equipped with heli's it would have made no difference.Sea state dictated it would be highly unlikely they could have launched a heli no matter what type as the pitching and roiling of the vessels would have exceeded the take off and landing limits of the aircraft

[John K]

Well surely that must prove the point for a couple of 'Nimitz' class Aircraft Carriers for the Irish Navy!

[clan]

Pink Panther I agree, but surely questions must be asked about the decision not to try and remove the injured sailors. It was portrayed as a minor accident to start with then the severity of it grew day by day. Seeing as it was off the coast of Ireland should we not have taken control of the situation and taken action to remove any injured bodies on board and control the rescue operation.

[Silver]

I read about the sub incident in 'The Press' newspaper here in New Zealand.

It stated that the sub was "160 miles off the Irish coast".
Well within our territorial waters, correct ?
Our SAR area ,yes ?  

It also stated that "an Irish naval vessel had to limp back to port ..... due to heavy seas".
What it meant by "limp" I don't know   '>

I still say that the two navalised Dauphins should be retained, upgraded (c.1.5 million euros each) and retained for NS use - be it from Eithne or a future NS vessel.
Much cheaper than buying new navalised helis at a future date !

If/when the NS gets it's new transport ship (to support UN missions etc) helis should be part of it's spec - to move supplys, medivac troops, etc.

It would also make the NS more capable in SAR situations like the sub incident.

What if this incident had been another Air India disaster ?

Yes, the CG helis would respond - but a heli equipped NS vessel would be a major help in such a situation.