Baldonnel to 'go civvie' again?

[Silver]

While listening to the Pat Kenny Radio Show during the week, an aviation expert/contributor was asked by Pat if Baldonnel should be a joint military/civilian airport?

(The contributor did not give a definitive answer to this question. I did not get his name, as I didn't hear the full conversation)

Pat stated - "We have very few military aircraft in Ireland and joint airports work well in other countries".

This topic was raised during a conversation about how busy Ireland's skies are becoming with all the commercial airliners operating to and from Dublin - and apparently, it will only get worse in the coming years.  

So what do you guys think?

Would it be a good idea - and why so?

Or a bad idea, and if so, why?

(I know this topic has been raised before, but I believe it will become a public issue again in the near future)

[Stinger]

I wouldn't see the problem with the Air Corps moving it's main base to a new location and turning Bal into a joint civilian military airfield.  The advantage of this would be that the Corps would be able to charge landing fees to all aircraft landing there and use this money to pay for the new and better air base.

[Silver]

It's something of a 'double edged sword' - the landing fees could be a bonus to the AC (if the actually got them!) but on the other hand there is the danger that the AC could be 'sidelined' in Baldonnel and eventually squeezed out ?!

[Dublin Spotter]

It could be run along the lines of RAF Northolt. This base server most of the Bizz/Exec traffic and VIP traffic coming into London. The RAF Crew everything from teh Fire Equipment to the Avgas pumps.

Landing fees may be a bit of extra cash for the Aircorp, however there would have to be a major amount of movements for it to pay.

[sealion]

Michael Ryanair has always said that dublin needs a second terminal,however he has also said that Dublin needs a second airport,to get much of the private and freight traffic away from what should be a passenger only airfield.

While there may not be enough Private jets to make a civil/military option viable,there is plenty of freight traffic. Shannon is surviving on freight traffic(in addition to numerous uniformed american visitors).

Bal is ideally located,sitting just outside the M50,and outside most of the traffic snarlups,and adjacent to the new Dublin outer ring. A Public Private partnership could ensure that this venture could be successful.

[John K]

Nearer to home, RAF Aldergrove works fine as a joint Military/Civil airport, all you'd need at Baldonnel is a terminal sited over the other side of the airfield, then the two sides could carry on as normal.

[202]

There was strong interest (from both sides) in the prospect of civil operations during Tony Ryan's time but he eventually got shouted down at so many local town hall meetings by residents concerned about noise that he dropped the idea. Also I do remember him saying that there would need to be a runway extension to get a laden 737 off within acceptable limits. The trouble too about freight/courier movements is that most of these take place at night when the anti-noise lobby would be at its most sensitive.

There might be an argument about relocating the Air Corps to Shannon -- lots of airspace and runway space for training; good base for the maritime patrol element, for the traning schools plus the possibility of finding a range in the Shannon estuary to replace Gormanstown which will soon be turned over to housing development. However it would be too remote from Dublin and the Curragh/Glen for the IAC's MATs and Army Co-Op committments so it is probably a non-runner

[Stinger]

Why can't we leave squadrons like the MATS ect in Balbonnela dn take the rest of the Corps to a new base

[matt_k]

I think funding would be the major problem there....

[pym]

I think there is an legitimate argument for locating the majority of Air Corps operations in Shannon - but based on the reaction of some of its members to being based on a ship for a few weeks, a permanent move to Shannon might be just too much hardship for certain people to take.

Taking a few massive leaps into the dim and distant future - I cant see the Air Corps operating fast jets regularly from Baldonnel without local uproar... hence a possible move to Shannon.... Also taking another massive leap and requiring some imagination.. not.. would be Ireland joining Nato. Shannon could become quite a military installation. While Baldonnel would cater mainly for commuter airlines, i.e. flying ATR 42's & BAE 146s. While still having helicopters based there as well as the ever so important MATS.

Still fear not ye stirrers of poo, Shannon will probably never become a full time military base and the Air Corps wont operate noisey jets or partake in invading anything from the size of  Rockall, up.

[nibog]

Don't you think that going civvie has been on the cards (behind closed doors) for a long while now.

Look at the big picture.
1. New Runways
2. New VOR/DME
3. New ILS
4. Infrastructure- new access roads just being completed.

Not much left to be done now.

Bal is the ideal location to operate to & from for ATRs B146s Biz-jets and other commuter short hop flights.  Dub will increase capacity and free up space allowing for more long haul, charter, cargo ops. Weston can keep their level of traffic probably unaffected.

Can't see a move to Shannon in the future, but as Dublin grows and grows, eventually a move to a new location - possibily midlands.

[Silver]

I have thought that too nibog.

(I'm been 'devils advocate' in order to generate discussion on the topic).

It seems almost inevitable that an 'extra' airport will have to be found near Dublin for the dramatic increase in commerical traffic.

[Irish251]

I agree that Baldonnel could be a useful airfield for bizjet and other GA flights, though Weston is already serving this market to a degree and is also quite well located as regards roads etc.

While the argument about commuter flights etc. stands up to a degree, you must remember that once you separate these operations from the "mainline" Dublin airport they would have to be self-sustaining, i.e. without feed to and from international flights, which must make up a reasonable proportion of their traffic at present.  Given Ireland's population and size, I would need a good deal of convincing that domestic-only operations would be viable without even greater subsidies than several of them already receive.  

From an airline's point of view, it would probably have to decide whether it was going to locate all of its Dublin operations at just one of the airports, or serve both.  The latter would surely drive up costs.  One could certainly see a developed EIME as attractive to a carrier like Ryanair, but remember they drive a hard bargain and don't actually like paying for the development of the facilities they use.  Furthermore the scale of their Dublin operations now and into the future is such that those living under the flight-path from Killiney to Baldonnel and also to the west of the airfield would need to get used to the associated noise from 0630 every morning till 2300 or later at night.

The scale of the Air Corps activity is such that it could probably stay on alongside a civil operation, though maybe circuit training might be better conducted at somewhere less busy like Shannon or Waterford.

[Historical-avi-irl.i8.com]

Wouldn't Weston Be An Easier Option To Accept Small Carriers:
+ Its On A Regular Bus Route
+ It's Next To A Motorway,

(Baldonnel, probably should except private aircraft though)

[FiannaFail]

Yes the Don should be developed as Dublin's second airport on the following conditions:

1. It remains under the ownership of the Dept of Defence and run by the IAC.

2. All income is reinvested into the development of the IAC only.

3. As in other such airports the military funcions must always take priority.

There are many examples where this is the norm, some are already mentioned above.  Other examples include Rome Campino; Naples and many of the French airports such as Nimes.

Just tink of the possibilities it would bring!!

FiannaFail '>