The retired mill of rumours

[pym]

I just thought I'd start a topic on rumours I've heard over the years regarding the Air Corps, some I've heard from individuals I've met, and others off the *sigh* internet. We're either great as a nation at spreading false information, have loads of people who can randomly make up facts, or there is some truth in these - perhaps because a few years have passed since they circulated, the present and former Air Corps lads can tell:

- When Aer Lingus was starting to retire the Fokker F-27 in the late 90's, there was a rumour that they were going to go to the Air Corps. Of course that never happened, but as rumours go, it had some legs.... Was this ever talked about from within the IAC?

- In the 80's the Air Corps were apparently pressing for replacement of the Fouga Magister, and they wanted the Alpha Jet in preference to the Hawk. One reason given was that the BAe Hawk was rumoured to have some problems with its wing, which meant costly replacement down the line....

- There were various rumours in the 80's and 90's that the Yanks were offering us vast (in our terms) numbers of Aircraft, basically for free, as a sweetener deal for us joining Nato. I've heard the Soviets were alert to the increased chance of us joining Nato in the early 80's and ran a number of agents here - which could corroborate this to a degree. Anyone ever see any evidence? heh..

- A Russian jet, (Mig-29 or SU-27 I think...) was demonstrated to the Air Corps in the 90's in Baldonnel (wouldve made a nice picture), when told of the procurement cost, they were politely told to feck off.

- The Fouga Magister was bought with one eye on launching strikes against domestic Terrorist targets. Was this ever trained for? On the face of it, it seems a bit ludicrous, since something like a Bronco probably wouldve done the job alot better.

- At one of the Air Corps family days in the late 90's, an Aero (the Albatros people..) Salesman was overheard on the phone talking to the Minister of Defence and was pressing desperately for him to sign a deal for the aircraft. I think this was mentioned here.

Feel free to add your list of rumours past and present, I would love to hear some from the guys who worked with the Air Corps. It could make for an interesting topic - and if we got some definitive answers - it'd serve to be the end of the rumours and misinformation etc.

[sealion]

I heard the fokker one back at the last air spectacular...From a guy wearing an air corps flying suit...

How often were we "sold" EH101s and Blackhawks in recent years?

[Spook]

Regarding the mig29/Su 27 I think that came from a picture of an air corps pilot sitting in a mig 23/27 or 29 at an IAT in fairford,thats as much as there was ever to it.
Re the alpha jets,there were german alphas at every air show here for most of the 80's/90's which may have started the alpha jet story.
The story of the poor aero salesman has some truth in it,they were bursting a gut to sell L39/L59 to the A/C.
Thats as much as I can add .

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi all
I heard the one about Alpha Jets many times and the story went that, whilst some of the pilots preferred Hawks, the rumour had it that no British aircraft would ever be bought as long as the North was still an issue. There was also one about the UK selling the Don some Jaguars.I heard that one before I ever joined the place and I checked it when I went in.No joy there,either.
In my time,the Finns came with a Valmet Vinka, a trainer about the same size as a Marchetti, with an Allison 250 turboprop engine.They did the usual, giving some of the pilots joyrides in it,etc.In the end, they got the usual "thanks but no thanks". Also, Pierce Cahill turned up with a militarised Cessna Caravan and they did carry out extensive trials, even to the extent of fitting the Marchetti camera pods.Now that would have been the right aircraft to buy. Also, the CASA 212 came in, in several guises and colour schemes, but never got the nod.That was when they were trailing Maritime aircraft, which could be where the F27 rumour came from, as a maritime F-27 did appear.
other rumours: the Marchettis to get turboprop engines at the IRANs.
The Fougas to be replaced with Fouga 90s/Alphas/Hawks/Aero...take your pick.
The Don to be closed or converted to a civvie airfield, due to Ryanair "pull".
Gormo to be closed and flattened for housing.
A Shorts Sherpa/s to be bought,as part of a Northern cooperation deal.
An Army unit to be moved out to the Don , after the barrack closures in Dublin.
All the helis to be painted green....watch this space!!!
The Don to be moved to Shannon.
All Don aircraft maintenance to be contracted out to civvies, bar a core bunch.
The Don to get it's own Air Defence unit, because of the amount of VIPs using the place.
Ah, brings back memories of canteen/Mess arguments/squabbling/bullshit sessions
regards
GttC

[Fouga]

Quote (pym @ 14 June 2005,09:04)

- In the 80's the Air Corps were apparently pressing for replacement of the Fouga Magister, and they wanted the Alpha Jet in preference to the Hawk. One reason given was that the BAe Hawk was rumoured to have some problems with its wing, which meant costly replacement down the line....

It is true about the wing problem with the Hawk if you watch discovery channel when they repeat a programme about the Hawk they have an elderly chap who used to test fly them and when he did some manouver with the hawk, the aircraft would start to fall like a rock and it was a wing design problem. They solved it by cutting out a piece of the wing directly behing the Flaps and this solved the problem

[RMR]

I think i saw that cessna caravan at gormonston .Was it painted  grey? Were or are the cessnas being sent overseas to be serviced/maintained,Liverpool i think it was i heard,being a pointless move that last one has to be a rumour!!

[davedublin]

in the early 90s, a trawler sank off howth harbour and a guy was drowned. it happened at nite, and we had to wait for a wessex from Valley, as there were no night rated pilots in the don. on pat kenny show on the radio, john decourcey ireland, a nautical type, insisted that we had been offered sea king har3s, when the raf were buying their last batch. it was a tie in order, meaning we wuld have got ours, at the same unit price as the brits, but the deal was apparently not proceeded with because, of the North

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi,rmr
The Caravan was painted grey,alright and was registered N9698F (I think) and had a roller-type cargo door. It had hard points on the wings for carriage of pods,etc.
As for the one about the Don not having night-rated pilots? Not so.The helicopters were not cleared for night-flying in icing conditions(non-deiced rotors) or for full IFR flight.Very few helicopters were, at the time.The pilots had no shortage of night flying experience. We should have got the Sea King a long time ago, but that's another story.
regards
GttC

[FMolloy]

I don't see the Northern issue being a reason for not buying British, the DF has bought plenty of Brit-made kit in the past.

[pym]

Well off the top of my head, since 1969 the only new British aircraft the Air Corps have operated was the BAe 125 jet.

If there was one ounce of truth the Seaking claims.... it's disturbing  that superior kit was turned down for political reasons. That said however, it is perhaps more likely that the north was used as an emotive excuse for the government of the day not to spend money

[IAS]

When one considers the type of aircraft bought for the Air Corps since 1969 Britain did not have much to offer. The Fouga alternative was the Jet Provost, not as successful as the Fouga, the Marchetti - nothing really at the time, the PC9 - maybe the Tucanno but these would probably come from Brazil, the Casa - the HS748/ATP not really an alternative, the only real alternative was the Lynx for the Dauphin and the Dauphain was bought following the experience of the Alloutte (for which Britain offered no real aternative either, but remember the Gazelle is part British - Gazelle/Lynx/Puma agreement). It should be remembered also that the Sea King was only licensed produced by Westland.

Also other British gear was bought for the DF e.g. L118/119s.

I don't think there was any real anti-British feeling in the DoD during the troubles, it's just a case of we didn't buy any "real" military aircraft.

IAS

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi all
If we had got the Tucano, we would have sourced it from the North,rather than go all the way to Brazil, even though the Tucano is quite different from the original Embraer turbo trainer.The Government would have liked the idea of being seen to be friendly, even to a Unionist dominated industry such as Shorts.Given the grief that Aer Lingus got from the "Loyal Brothers" when they were getting the Sheds built,I don't think the Govt. was in any rush to buy British, in the end.The Don does have the Defender, which was originally British.The Bulldog was also one of the contenders for the Chipmunk replacement, but was finally ruled out because the original Air Corps specification grew from a fixed-gear to a retractable-gear requirement. The Army have plenty of UK-origin equipment,anyway.Finally, the Learjet's airframe might even have been built in Shorts.
regards
GttC

[P.Doff]

The one about the Aero salesman is no rumour. It was "I" who posted it. I was standing next to him on the ramp as he had his little rant!!!!

[Bailer]

Why the Caravan? For Carrying Cargo? It is and Ideal Para training Craft (I know.. I've Jumped out of a few) But I doubt they would buy it for that? Its not the Most Comfortable Passenger carrying Plane and while Poweful, Its Manouevrabilty isn't matched to Photo Recon? (For Combat anyway) the Marchetti is much Better.

[IAS]

On a related point, I thought Tucano production finished in Belfast years ago? To re-open the line would cost a fortune and certainly would not have been viable for 8 airframes.

IAS